Resistance to the French threat mounting!

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by DanS
And what Iraqis want, I am sure, is not so much 'democracy-American-style', a doubtful good at best, but a better life.

Sure they want it. Everybody in the mideast does.

Everybody does.

But you are missing my point. Baghdad was a *very* good place to live, *under Saddam*, before the US bombing/sanctions.

I do not buy this entire 'Saddam is a monster' nonsense. Among Middle Eastern rulers (including Israeli ones), the guy is above average, or better.

[Spiffor]

My Iraqi/Kurd neighbour doesn't say so Comrade. I wonder why

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by PLATO1003
I fail to understand how you equate freedom with oppression.

I equate freedom with independence. That is: INDEPENDENCE. That is: Not being a puppet of the US.

I wish Europe were free.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Spiffor
My Iraqi/Kurd neighbour doesn't say so Comrade. I wonder why

At least he is alive. Good luck he isn´t a Kurd from Turkey.

[DanS]

But you are missing my point. Baghdad was a *very* good place to live, *under Saddam*, before the US bombing/sanctions.

STOP THE INSANITY!

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by DanS
But you are missing my point. Baghdad was a *very* good place to live, *under Saddam*, before the US bombing/sanctions.

STOP THE INSANITY!

Must I search for a link?

Anybody tell this guy: Living standards in late Seventies Iraq were comparable to Europe.

[DanS]

And went downhill fast just as soon as Hussein got into power in 1979.

[PLATO]

I have to leave this thread now. It was a very good intellectual discussion, but has now descended to complete falsehood and mis-information. Good by Comrade.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by DanS
And went downhill fast just as soon as Hussein got into power in 1979.

He was 'the force behind the throne' before that.

And no, things got *better* under him, until the (US-incited) war against Iran.

Now I am the first to say this was a mistake. He should have allied with the Ayatollahs against the pro-American forces; this is now clear to see.

I am sure Saddam would agree with me on this.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by PLATO1003
I have to leave this thread now. It was a very good intellectual discussion, but has now descended to complete falsehood and mis-information. Good by Comrade.

Bye, and don´t forget: Left foot, then right foot, then...

[Spiffor]

Plato : don't let this thread become "Tribuned" (the left-wing equivalent of "Fezzed")

[PLATO]

Okay, just one more for you Spiff:

Gross Domestic Product (GDP): estimated at US$35 billion in 1986; in 1987 GDP estimated to have a 1.7 percent real growth rate, after negative growth rates 1981-86.Following outbreak of war with Iran in 1980, oil production decreased sharply

Tribune: Guess negative GNP is a "better" standard of living in your world.

This information from Library of Congress overview of Iraq.

Comrade, bring facts not propaganda to discussion and we'll talk.

[Sirotnikov]

I believe Saddam will comply to everything the UN / France demands, because the UN cannot demand more than disarming, and Saddam wants to keep his throne above all.

But don't you see that Saddam has no reason to comply because there is absolutely no thret to his throne.

He currently is not complying, and everyone but the US and the UK are willing to live with it, as long as he throws some kind of bomb to the inspectors, once a month or so.

The French and German resistance to war only proves him that there is absolutely no retribution to fear, as long as he gets the rest of the world keen to keep the order (not to be confused with peace) as it is.

The Inspectors aren't supposed to find evidence of weapons. Their work premesis is that the weapons are there and are hidden. Their job is to be supplied by Iraq their location, and destroy them.

The fact that there are dozens of weapons which are somehow unaccounted for, is already a material breach of the last resolution.

Saddam is, infact, effectively, evading any possible retribution by merely hiding the weapons well.

You can bring a population of inspectors that is twice the population of Iraq - they still won't find anything Iraq may want to hide.

The fact that they did not show all material they had in the written report in novemeber, is already a material breach.

Every time he cooperates with the inspectors, he gets more legitimacy in all countries who don't want his regime toppled through war (i.e everywhere except the US).

Correction: Every time he creates the impression of cooperating.

Do you really think, that it is ok, that when the UN told Iraq to report everything he has on november, the UN will seem respectable, accepting reports that are minimal in essense, and very partial, 3 months after deadline, and then a refusal to disarm weapons which are deemed to be illegal?

This is infact exactly like Germany or Italy walking out of the league of nations.



As far the the original article goes - for the most part they are talking nonsense.

They start by saying that history can rarely teach us anything. That would seem convincing if they would stop at that point. But instead, they ignore their own advice, and begin trying to prove their point about how this is like or unlike anything in history. An irrelevant issue after they made their first claim.

Furthermore, some of them talk about how Iraq is not a smoking gun which can threaten Europe.

The questions that follow are:

1) are we only dealing with the security of europe? should we disregard the peace in quwait, iran, jordan, israel?
2) is it not best to stop threats before they materialize so that eventual war will be more costly
3) todays definitions of war are very different. For saddam to threaten or harm any country, he has absolutely no need for tanks or airplanes or guided missiles. All he needs is ties with people who can abduct such a weapon. Or with people who can build bombs or chemical weapons.

These "historians" are analyzing a 21st century war, with tools of 2nd world war.

They make comparisons which they can't make, because they don't take into account that this is not imperalism and the US and UK goals are not imperalistic. They ignore the change in warfare.

They ignore the change in strategy of rogue nations - from overt to covert with a good PR system.


As far as Avi Shlaim in particular goes, I've read articles by Efraim Karsh, completely ripping apart his historical reasearches as phoney, and I'll take Karsh'es word over his everyday.

I wonder why Karh, who works iirc in the London university, wasn't asked for an opinion, though Shlaim was.

It was however, and interesting insight into the mind of the brittish society.

Living standards in late Seventies Iraq were comparable to Europe.

It's nice to know that Tribune considers a world where secret police can kindap you to take part in chemical weapons experiments, a "nice place to live in".

It's nice to know that Tribune considers a world where political threats are shot dead , rather than given a fair chance in the media and nation-wide elections, a "free place to live in".

But then again, many lefties have wierd ideas of freedom and good life. Maybe he could enjoy life under Stalin.

I know for sure that my grandparents did not.

[PLATO]

Sirotnikov

[Spiffor]

Siro :
you make many points. It is right, I should have spoken about giving the impression of collaborating. There is a definite threat to Saddam's throne : the US army just outside the border (and inside as well). If all hell gets loose, Saddam will fall and probably die, like his heirs. I expect he really doesn't want it.
If pressured enough, I expect him to hand over almost all his WMD, because even them are less precious to him than his throne and his life. Saddam is a ruthless and murderous dictator, but not a madman by any standard : he always kill for his interests, not for ideology or fun.

And please, do not assimilate Comrade Tribune to the left-wingers or the Europeans. It would be like assimilating Fez with all right-wingers or Spaniards. Both are in their little category of stupidity (probably the same )