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**Urban Ranger** · February 27, 2003, 01:06

Originally posted by DanS
And went downhill fast just as soon as Hussein got into power in 1979.

Not until after Gulf War I, Dan. Then it went into the toilet really fast.

**Urban Ranger** · February 27, 2003, 01:09

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Ok. I'll bite. How was the Iran-Iraq War incited by the US as oppossed to Iran?

Perhaps if Saddam didn't know the US would give him support, he wouldn't have started the war.

**DinoDoc** · February 27, 2003, 01:15

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Perhaps if Saddam didn't know the US would give him support, he wouldn't have started the war.

1) You're seriously over-reaching here. US support was largely irrelevent to the opening of hostilities between the two states.

2) It was Iran that forced the war, not Iraq.

**Urban Ranger** · February 27, 2003, 01:20

IIRC, Iraq attacked first, but was soon forced into fighting defensively. Furthermore, nobody knew what happened through the backdoor channels. The only thing that can be certain is the US liked the then Iranian government a lot less than Hussein.

**Spiffor** · February 27, 2003, 01:26

I was interested by your claim of Iraq being on par with European countries. By the time I begin this post, I don't know how true or false it is.

So, according to http://www.worldbank.org/data/countr...ag/irq_aag.pdf and http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Asia/iraqc.htm

Iraq had in 1981 :
- a GDP of 32.6 billion $
- a population of 13,500,000.
Calculated GDP per capita : 2,414.81 $

In comparison, United Kingdom had in 1981 :
- a GDP of 508.9 billion $
- a population of 56,329,000
Calculated GDP per capita : 9,034.42 $

I didn't find PPP translations of GDP for this juncture (which take the price differences into account). Care to find them to give some weigh to your assertions ?

**PLATO** · February 27, 2003, 01:29

Also, you have to compare GNP per capita with the actual prices of consumer goods at the time and in that country. In a developing country you have low wages, but also low prices, so, yes, you need a price index as well to arrive at meaningful conclusions. So, yes, you 'got' me on that I should have explicitly said so. I thought that was understood.

It was understood. These levels are adjusted to be comparitive.

This would indicate a 300 to 500 % drop from 1980 to 1986 in GNP if Iraq was on par with Europe. Is this really what you are trying to state?

If the argument is: Was Iraq better off before Saddam took power in 1979? Then the answer is "yes, unquestionably." If the argument is: Was Iraqi standard of living upto European levels in 1980? The answer is far more than a resounding "NO"

Read data! You are looking for holes in data, not for the meaning of data. At some point you must draw a conclusion based on facts. I have provided them. You have only made nebulous statements about forgetting where links are. With all due respect, put up or shut up.

**Comrade Tribune** · February 27, 2003, 01:32

Originally posted by DinoDoc
How does that disprove the commonly accepted fact that Iran started the war?

What is 'commonly accepted' about that?

(Dino, Dino,

you should know that I call every bluff.)

The war began on September 22, 1980, when Iraqi troops launched a full-scale invasion of Iran.

source: Federation of American Scientists:

404 Not Found

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/war/iran-iraq.htm

**PLATO** · February 27, 2003, 01:34

Comrade, You are absolutely correct that Iraq started this war.

**DarthVeda** · February 27, 2003, 01:35

This is why I speak Spanish and not French or German...

**PLATO** · February 27, 2003, 01:36

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

Not until after Gulf War I, Dan. Then it went into the toilet really fast.

UR: see my earlier post detailing negative growth rate in GNP in early 1980's.

Saddam has always been in toilet in more ways than one.

**Comrade Tribune** · February 27, 2003, 01:38

Originally posted by Spiffor
I was interested by your claim of Iraq being on par with European countries. By the time I begin this post, I don't know how true or false it is.

So, according to http://www.worldbank.org/data/countr...ag/irq_aag.pdf and http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Asia/iraqc.htm

Iraq had in 1981 :
- a GDP of 32.6 billion $
- a population of 13,500,000.
Calculated GDP per capita : 2,414.81 $

In comparison, United Kingdom had in 1981 :
- a GDP of 508.9 billion $
- a population of 56,329,000
Calculated GDP per capita : 9,034.42 $

I didn't find PPP translations of GDP for this juncture (which take the price differences into account). Care to find them to give some weigh to your assertions ?

Your numbers sound plausible. If Iraq had about 3 times lower prices and invested a little bit more into consumer goods, then it would have had the living standard of Britain. But it probably didn´t, I was thinking rather of Greece or Portugal; I think it can easily be seen that Iraq played in about the same league.

**PLATO** · February 27, 2003, 01:40

If Iraq had about 3 times lower prices and invested a little bit more into consumer goods

IF????

What about pigs and wings?

**PLATO** · February 27, 2003, 01:42

Originally posted by Spiffor
I was interested by your claim of Iraq being on par with European countries. By the time I begin this post, I don't know how true or false it is.

So, according to http://www.worldbank.org/data/countr...ag/irq_aag.pdf and http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Asia/iraqc.htm

Iraq had in 1981 :
- a GDP of 32.6 billion $
- a population of 13,500,000.
Calculated GDP per capita : 2,414.81 $

In comparison, United Kingdom had in 1981 :
- a GDP of 508.9 billion $
- a population of 56,329,000
Calculated GDP per capita : 9,034.42 $

I didn't find PPP translations of GDP for this juncture (which take the price differences into account). Care to find them to give some weigh to your assertions ?

Good post and data source.

**Comrade Tribune** · February 27, 2003, 01:46

Originally posted by PLATO1003
If the argument is: Was Iraq better off before Saddam took power in 1979? Then the answer is "yes, unquestionably." If the argument is: Was Iraqi standard of living upto European levels in 1980? The answer is far more than a resounding "NO"

He lead the coup 1968. Your assertion he came to power in 79 is wrong, I´d say. The other guy was a straw man.

And, yes, the wars devastated the economy. So where is your proof that Iraqi living standards ca. 1980 were *not* comparable to Europe´s?

**Comrade Tribune** · February 27, 2003, 01:49

Originally posted by PLATO1003
IF????

These are plausible assumptions; prove them wrong.

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