Republic of Alberta, Part III

[Asher]

Originally posted by monkspider
Asher's example has motivated me to start a campaign for Kansan independence, after all, the damn liberal democrats never campaigned down here and our state is at the will of evil liberal provinces such as New York.
KANSAS UBER ALLES!

But you've got a Senate, where you have the same say as New York.

Canada has no such senate structure. In fact, the people of Alberta tried electing a senator to represent our needs, but Chretien wouldn't even have that. Rather than appoint our selected senators, he appointed some Liberal cronie to represent Alberta, even though the vast majority of Albertans are certainly not Liberal.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher

But you've got a Senate, where you have the same say as New York.

Canada has no such senate structure. In fact, the people of Alberta tried electing a senator to represent our needs, but Chretien wouldn't even have that. Rather than appoint our selected senators, he appointed some Liberal cronie to represent Alberta, even though the vast majority of Albertans are certainly not Liberal.

This is not a sufficient argument for separatism. It is a sufficient argument for a better senate system [edit], or the abolition of the senate.

Again, more is needed for your radical conclusions, Asher.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
I wasn't aware that residents of Alberta were prohibited from voting.

Oh my. This is complex for you, isn't it.
We can vote, alright. Even though we've got about 120,000 people per riding that should have 70,000, because Chretien doesn't want to redraw the lines to give us more MPs...but that's another issue.

The issue is, no matter what we vote, it doesn't matter...

Yes they do, because they consistently win free and fair elections.

~40% of Canadians voted for them, and it gave them complete, total, and unchecked control of the country. This is your definition of free and fair? Even if there's no structure like a US Senate which ensures that there's no tyranny of the majority?

Again - I want an answer to the question, no more evasive and irrelevant answers.

Your question isn't relevant in the first place! I'm not complaining about the tax system at all, I have no idea why you're hooked on how we pay taxes.

In other words - you need more than a tax gripe to make your separatist argument work.

I can't believe you instruct people at a university.

It's not a tax gripe. Please read the thread if you want to participate...

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
This is not a sufficient argument for separatism. It is a sufficient argument for a better senate system [edit], or the abolition of the senate.

Again, more is needed for your radical conclusions, Asher.

How many decades has Alberta pushed for Senate Reform...

The idea is that BECAUSE nothing is changing, that's why there's a separatist movement.

The Senate won't be reformed because the current system benefits the people in central Canada. Without Central Canada's support, there will never be senate reform. Why would central Canada give up its stranglehold on power to those "wingnuts" in Alberta by giving a fair system of government which can help protect smaller provinces from their tyranny?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Agathon
Plenty of Canadians pay a lot in tax and receive very little back. The residents of Toronto pay far more in taxes and provide more benefits to the province of Ontario than they receive back (witness the declining state of the TTC and other public services).

You're going to confuse the anti-Canadian troll. He'll have to do a google search to figure out what TTC means.

Don't feed the troll. He just likes to piss off loyal Canadians.

[Asher]

He just likes to piss off loyal Canadians.

Thanks for illustrating why Albertans are frustrated.

Any time you advocate reform for a corrupt system, you're no longer a loyal Canadian, in fact you are anti-Canadian.

A loyal Canadian would bend over and ask for it harder, right Tingkai?

[The Mad Monk]

No taxation without representation!

America is with you!

[Ben Kenobi]

Looks like I missed out on the fireworks.

Asher, looking at your graphs Alberta's done quite a good job under Canada as Boris said earlier.

How well would Alberta do if it had to ship goods across the border to Canada and pay duties?

What kind of products does Alberta export besides oil?
Could any of these products remain competitive without a seaport?

What proportion of Alberta's oil production goes to Canada and would face duties?

Without NAFTA would Alberta be making nearly as much money as they are now? We see Mr. Chretien refusing to link softwood with gas to keep Alberta revenues flowing.

Agathon, regarding your qualifications, read my sig.
Sava can be eloquent at times.

Would the mighty Republic of Alberta consider union with the humble province of BC?

[Asher]

Originally posted by obiwan18
How well would Alberta do if it had to ship goods across the border to Canada and pay duties?

Obviously NAFTA would need to be renegotiated prior to Alberta seceding, if that ever happens.

What kind of products does Alberta export besides oil?

Everything a normal place produces. Manufacturing, hardware, software, consulting firms, retail chains, etc.

Could any of these products remain competitive without a seaport?

Why would BC lay off lots of workers and refuse to deal with Alberta's products?

What proportion of Alberta's oil production goes to Canada and would face duties?

See NAFTA.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher

Oh my. This is complex for you, isn't it.
We can vote, alright. Even though we've got about 120,000 people per riding that should have 70,000, because Chretien doesn't want to redraw the lines to give us more MPs...but that's another issue.

Given the amount of seats the Liberals get I don't see how this would make that much of a difference. Again, this is not a sufficient reason for separation. The government of the day has the power to do these things - who else do you suggest does it? Not too long ago, politically speaking, Brian Mulroney was the PM, presumably he also had the same power, so I fail to see how this is relevant.

The issue is, no matter what we vote, it doesn't matter...

That's the case for a lot of people. It was certainly the case for me before New Zealand changed to PR and I didn't advocate revolt then. Why are you so special?

~40% of Canadians voted for them, and it gave them complete, total, and unchecked control of the country. This is your definition of free and fair? Even if there's no structure like a US Senate which ensures that there's no tyranny of the majority?

The US Senate is an anti democratic institution. Unfortunately, the "tyranny of the majority" is the best we can do. The US Senate is really just the "tyranny of the minority". In any form of government there has to be some kind of "tyranny" to get things done; although "tyranny" is just an inflammatory term.

And if you don't like the fact that 60% of Canadians did not vote for the Liberals, I suggest you agitate for proportional representation. But if you do Alberta will be really sunk, because PR favours left leaning parties: the NDP would do very well under it.

Your question isn't relevant in the first place! I'm not complaining about the tax system at all, I have no idea why you're hooked on how we pay taxes.

Quoting Asher:

Albertans are just pissed off because Alberta gives more money than it receives to Ottawa (as one of two "have" provinces that help fund the other provinces) and Ottawa kinda plugs their ears to Alberta's wishes politically, constantly..

In what way does Alberta give more money to Ottawa that could not be fairly described as a "tax"; taxes being money that the government legally collects?

You don't have to throw petty insults because you are losing the argument. I have a scholarship and I teach because I got very high grades in the subject which is the recognised indication of competence in the area.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher


How many decades has Alberta pushed for Senate Reform...

The idea is that BECAUSE nothing is changing, that's why there's a separatist movement.

The Senate won't be reformed because the current system benefits the people in central Canada. Without Central Canada's support, there will never be senate reform. Why would central Canada give up its stranglehold on power to those "wingnuts" in Alberta by giving a fair system of government which can help protect smaller provinces from their tyranny?

And what other mechanism would you suggest for Senate reform than democratic means?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by obiwan18

Agathon, regarding your qualifications, read my sig.
Sava can be eloquent at times.

Can you imagine PhD applications if this was true?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
Given the amount of seats the Liberals get I don't see how this would make that much of a difference. Again, this is not a sufficient reason for separation.

I'm intrigued -- what is sufficient reason for separation?

As I see it, any time a region feels they'd be better off without their country, they should be able to tell the other country to piss off, then take their ball and go home...

The government exists to serve all citizens, not just the majority. Why don't you sit and think about that for a bit...

That's the case for a lot of people. It was certainly the case for me before New Zealand changed to PR and I didn't advocate revolt then. Why are you so special?

I love that -- "revolt". That's a good one...
I hope you realize the difference between revolt and legal secession...

The US Senate is an anti democratic institution.

Oh please. If you want to be anal about the definition about democracy, anything but a direct democracy is an anti-democratic institution.

A democracy should exist to serve the majority while preserving the rights of the minority.

In my eyes, the US Senate is certainly democratic, and actually their system is far more democratic than what we have in Canada.

Unfortunately, the "tyranny of the majority" is the best we can do.

"Culture of defeatism" quote comes to mind

The US Senate is really just the "tyranny of the minority".

Dig! Dig! Dig!

And if you don't like the fact that 60% of Canadians did not vote for the Liberals, I suggest you agitate for proportional representation. But if you do Alberta will be really sunk, because PR favours left leaning parties: the NDP would do very well under it.

Alberta's been advocating reform of any sort to the senate for decades. I don't know if you've been here long enough to know that. There is a point where you have to stop saying that we should advocate some kind of change, because we've been doing that forever, and Canada wants nothing of it...

In what way does Alberta give more money to Ottawa that could not be fairly described as a "tax"; taxes being money that the government legally collects?

Do your research if you're interested. Look up federal transfer payments and equalization. Two provinces have a "net transfer" out of their province: Alberta and Ontario. Alberta loses $2600 per capita, Ontario $1800 per capita. All other provinces gain financially from transfer and equalization payments.

You don't have to throw petty insults because you are losing the argument.

I haven't thrown any petty insults, and I'm certainly not losing the argument. You're at a disadvantage since you obviously haven't been in the country for too long and understand that saying things like "you should support reform of this or that", because that would imply we haven't been doing that for decades.

[Ben Kenobi]

Asher:
You'd have to hope for some good deals with Canada for free trade. Otherwise, you'll see most of your profits eaten up through duties.

IMHO, Alberta secession would be more viable with BC. We're just starting to turn the corner economically, after 10 years of NDP governments.

In what way does Alberta give more money to Ottawa that could not be fairly described as a "tax"; taxes being money that the government legally collects?

Agathon:

What about federal transfer payments to 'have-not' provinces? This taxation does nothing for economic development in the East.

They tried to reduce transfer payments to Quebec, but Quebec protested, so they kept the same rates, despite improving economic conditions.

Who's wearing the pants in this relationship?

[Asher]

Originally posted by obiwan18
Asher:
You'd have to hope for some good deals with Canada for free trade. Otherwise, you'll see most of your profits eaten up through duties.

If the Alberta seceded, I'm fairly sure the US would welcome even less trade restrictions between the two countries, particularly when they're concerned about oil reserves.

And the US market can more than make up for any lack of demand caused by Alberta seceding from Canada.

A better question would be: Where would Canada suddenly get its products from, if not Alberta? If there's extra duties, we'll just raise our damn prices to cover them. It's not like they're going to go ask Russia for natural gas now, are they?

IMHO, Alberta secession would be more viable with BC. We're just starting to turn the corner economically, after 10 years of NDP governments.

I'm not too sure. BC is too left wing for my tastes.