We have (mostly) failed... :(

[Az]

DanielXY: If that is discussable, then anything is.

[Traianvs]

Why didn't you go with the old cake-in-the-face -demonstration?

I am afraid that is a Belgian copyright for Bill Gates only

Originally posted by Azazel


so does:
The French commander in chief.
The British
The American
The Japanese
The Chinese
The Russian
The Egyptian
The Spanish
The Syrian
The Iraqi
...
...
...
The list goes to include any nation on earth.

Holding your own nation to higher standards than others is nothing but arrogance, and feeling of superiority , and maybe even subliminal racism.

That is absolutely not true: you want an example?

The Belgian army commander has done nothing wrong whatsoever... as we do not use soldiers for agressive actions, only in case of disasters (the recent floods in belgium for example) or peacekeeping.. I don't even think Belgian soldiers have actually killed people in the recent past... so that argument is not on my friend


To Firelad: Showing your contempt is the only way to change things. If the badass commanders and politicians get no opposition, it will be all the easier to execute their plans. You've got the good spirit m8!

[Az]

yes, trajanus, of course, the Belgian army has never committed any crimes.

http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve5/1078lum.html

[Hueij]

Just one smiley for firelad:

Okay, two...

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by aaglo
Why didn't you go with the old cake-in-the-face -demonstration?

Somebody got our PM that way...

[Ben Kenobi]

"most of the arab world would prefer to take Israel off the map. That's undeniable. The question is, whould more happiness ensue from such an event. say, Israel is overrun by the palestinians. does that improve the situation of millions of people in the arab world? not by bit"

Does happiness = improving economic situation?

In terms of plain old emotional happiness, I think the Arabs would be delighted if Israel collapsed. Since there are more Arabs than Israelis, therefore overall happiness has increased if Israel were to collapse.

Of course, one could weigh the decrease of happiness of the Israelis more than the overall boost recieved to the Arabs. How would you gauge the happiness loss and compare to the Arab's happiness gain?

[Eli]

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030115-035849-6156r

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Eli

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030115-035849-6156r

Is now really the time to become a royal pain in the arse of one of biggest allies?

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Eli

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030115-035849-6156r

A really good plan, to worsen the international relations of Israel to the rest of the world

We see, that Sharon knows how to strengthen the ties to Israels Allies

[Shi Huangdi]

I think is in a precarious enough that it couldn't afford to kill people on their allies territory.

[Az]

"most of the arab world would prefer to take Israel off the map. That's undeniable. The question is, whould more happiness ensue from such an event. say, Israel is overrun by the palestinians. does that improve the situation of millions of people in the arab world? not by bit"

Does happiness = improving economic situation?

In terms of plain old emotional happiness, I think the Arabs would be delighted if Israel collapsed. Since there are more Arabs than Israelis, therefore overall happiness has increased if Israel were to collapse.

Of course, one could weigh the decrease of happiness of the Israelis more than the overall boost recieved to the Arabs. How would you gauge the happiness loss and compare to the Arab's happiness gain?

I am sorry, I fail to see your logic. Of course most of the arab world would be delighted. but how long this orgasm of hate would last? a day, two, a month at most? then, they'll return to be tortured and prosecuted by their leaders.

meanwhile the lives of the Israeli citizens would be destroyed.

the decision in the last week is not a good one, considering Israel's position. I guess one should be a superpower to have the right to do such things.

[Maroule]

Hum, some interesting points all around,
I’ll start by the trivial first

1/ Belgians : I love these guys (much nicer than French ), but committed (as a state, don’t take that personally) a near genocide in Congo. Very well documented now, if little publicised, and absolutely horrendous (a bit like what we French did in Madagascar, around 47, I think). Yet army intervention doesn’t necessarily lead to slaughter, it can also prevent it, look at what is happening right now in Ivory Coast. The army is just a tool, state policies are the ones to blame.

2/ thumbs up for anybody taking non violent action to uphold its beliefs.

3/ “most of the arab world would prefer to take Israel off the map. That's undeniable. The question is, would more happiness ensue from such an event.”

Wrong question. Firstly, the ‘Arab street’ would probably be delighted by the disappearance of Israel, but they would also be probably happy just with the creation of a Palestinian state living in peace with Israel. Secondly, the genuine question for Israelis is related to Israel itself, what it is ready to do to ensure its preservation, what are its values, etc.

It has been said before, but Israel is fighting 2 wars, one against fanatic groups, for which it should have all our support, and where compromise is probably not possible. But it mixed that with a second war, against a whole population, by instrumentalising settlers and fanatics, by bullying palestinian civilians and driving them to submission, and by delaying the inevitable (the creation of a viable Palestinian state). This second war goes against the very justification of the original existence of Israel (create a haven for persecuted people). There are ways to separate the two wars, it has all been said before.

Anyway, these days I have the utmost sense of sympathy for anybody going against Sharon…

[Ben Kenobi]

Azazel- you answered my question. I asked how someone who is a utilitarian would compare the two forms of happiness.

I'm certainly not defending the Arabs who want to wipe Israel out of the Middle East.

[Az]

There are ways to separate the two wars, it has all been said before.

Maroule: There are no two wars. I hate to see the palestinian population hurt, esp. seing reports of innocents being killed.
The sad part is that we don't have a choice?

-Withdraw unileterally from most territories? There would be nothing there AT ALL to stop the palestinian terrorists. infiltrations, attacks etc. There is no way that we can allow that to happen.
-Negotiate? With who? Arafat has shown that he uses the palestinian authority as a tool against Israel. During palestinian rule of 99% of the palestinian population, in the mid and late 90s, terror acts continued. If there are more moderate elements, they have no power, sadly.

-Bring the UN to intervene? We saw how much good it did us after we left lebanon. NOW hizbullah can reach my city with rockets.

So staying there is the only choice left. And then we are behaving like elephants in a China store. We break things along the way, and hurt people.

There is no easy way out. I don't think that the policies that the Israeli government conducts are always good, but we really don't have too much of a choice.

[Maroule]

you did not have problems to withdraw unilaterally from Lebanon when it suited you, even though that was blotched. Allowing a viable palestinian state to exist would also deprive most hardliner palestinians all legitimacy. Those who really want the destruction of Israel (and are hiding behind claims for just a state) would be exposed. As for who would direct this state, don't worry, nature hates emptiness, and it would give a jolt to palestinian politics, fostering it on the administration of this new state.
One sticky point would be Jerusalem, but that will have to be resolved too, if you want to avoid another 50 years of bloodshed.
But I'm not candid, I know how hard these seemingly simple ideas are to implement. I just can't see any other solution, and definitely the preservation of the current status quo is neither possible nor desirable.
I also know I'm not suffering directly from the situation, so it's easier for me to say. Still, I think Likud policies are going nowhere fast, to the detriment of Israelis.