We have (mostly) failed... :(

[Firelad]

The reasons that I talk more about Israel's crimes than of those of other states are:
1.The fact that I live in it,
2.I feel more connection to it as a result, and
3.Also know more about said crimes, also because I live here.

That's all... That's my battle right now because that's where I'm at.

[Az]

I am sorry, I of course forgot to point out that the ones that threatened you are frighteningly stupid people. period.

[Firelad]

Spiffor: Just for the sake of accuracy, the bad folks weren't really serious... Small stones and they're all wimps anyway

EDIT: Yes they are stupid. Unfortunately there are a LOT of them in Reali School (You Israelis know ) and in Israel General. How did the proletarians degrade so?
Um, wait... In Reali they're all burgoise and very rich too... Except for a few people like myself whose parents are willing to spend half their income on my school..... And I don't even study - not to speak of studying hard...

[Az]

oh god. you didn't just use the b-word. these definitions of classes are way outdated: doctors make less than factory workers, etc.

Firelad: you seem to be a hopeless romantic. That's cute. but reality bites. Say, Israel collapses. what good will it bring to the world? will people be happier? no. Our country, believe it or not, is a sane island of pragmatism and prosperity in this region. Your protests are worthy, I know first hand evidences from people that served in the territories how is it to serve there. A friend of mine was a member of the Sayeret Egoz special forces. He said he shot and wounded a man during cerfew, because he didn't stop running after being repeatedly called to stop. He turned to be an innocent civilian. He also killed a terrorist in a gunbattle. We are in a very grave situation, indeed. But does your rethoric actually help the situation? make things better? are people generally happier because of you? Because that's what MY PERSONAL morality is all about. It's called utility. might read up on that.

[Pekka]

Not to take any sides on what Firelad is fighting for, but I think it's brave and good thing. It's important to say also the unpopular views. Too bad you got threatened, I hope you still have the courage to go on.
But as I said, I have nothing against this commander, I don't know him, I just think it's brave to demonstrate the other views, even if one didn't agree with them.

[DanielXY]

@ Azael

Interesting point with the overall hapyness in this case. Does protesting make ppl. happy? Well the ones that are protesting are angry about something, and the ones that disagree are angry at the protestors ... so it seems it doesnt make ppl. happy ...

Therefor for overall happyness increase governments should do their best that they will be trusted more, like inventing better lies .... hm, or tell the trues? Nah, better not, or the overall happyness would fall dramaticly

Conclusion, best for overall happyness is a government which is king at creating an perfect illusion for its population...

[Az]

nice try Daniel.

The act of protest makes the protesting individual feel good about it. however many others can disagree strongly, thus it would harm them, that balances the odds against protest. There is the big aspect, though. Protesting araises public awareness to certain problems, and keeps the government accountable, which is usually very utilitarian. It keeps the government vigilant to rights and wrongs.

My utilitarian point against his thoughts is the destruction of the State of Israel.

[Firelad]

Azazel: The B-word is usually uttered by me in a humorous context. In any case, most of the people in Reali are rich Denyatim (you live in Haifa, you know what I mean) - C'mon Gad Ze'evi's son sits in the next classroom. So you know what I mean.
And I do think that the application of my views would make people much happier. Most certainly it will spare many an untimely death.
If you want to read up on my position on what your view seems to be (I may be misunderstanding you, I admit to know next to nothing about it) then read Brave New World by Aldous Huxley. And remember that I view the book as being ambivalent rather than one-sided as most people seem to consider it. But lately I've started to think that there are more parameters to happiness than Soma can bring. Or whatever that thing's called, haven't read the book for a while, don't have it at home.

[Az]

Oh, the Realy kids are *******s, alright.

Brave new world... keep wanting to pick up this book, never actually did. In short, what's the Soma?

[Firelad]

perfect happiness-creating chemical if u get down in very happy yet pointless BNW society.

[Az]

That's not utilitarianism. society would stagnate under the use of drugs, and then, the social ( and not only ) hangover would come.

My morality: As much people as happy for as long as possible. period.

do you agree or disagree?

[DanielXY]

Originally posted by Azazel
nice try Daniel.

The act of protest makes the protesting individual feel good about it. however many others can disagree strongly, thus it would harm them, that balances the odds against protest. There is the big aspect, though. Protesting araises public awareness to certain problems, and keeps the government accountable, which is usually very utilitarian. It keeps the government vigilant to rights and wrongs.

Hm, ok...
but a government which does good enough propaganda that the population doesnt feel the need to protest, since there arent any important issues, would still be better than the ones we have, or no?

My utilitarian point against his thoughts is the destruction of the State of Israel.

Hm, dont really know, if the overall world happyness would rise or fall in the case of the destruction of Israel. May depends on the circumstances. At least most of the Arab world would like it. Obviously Israel population wouldnt. Dont know about the rest of the world. But I wouldnt take it for granted that the majority would oppose Israel to be taken off the map.

Note: I dont say I want the destruction of Israel, just saying from an Utilitarian view it isnt so clear if it is a good thing or not.

My point being: Utilitarian is just Mob rule for what is right and wrong.

[Az]

Hm, ok...
but a government which does good enough propaganda that the population doesnt feel the need to protest, since there arent any important issues, would still be better than the ones we have, or no?

no because an actual good government would be much better in terms of happiness.

Hm, dont really know, if the overall world happyness would rise or fall in the case of the destruction of Israel. May depends on the circumstances. At least most of the Arab world would like it. Obviously Israel population wouldnt. Dont know about the rest of the world. But I wouldnt take it for granted that the majority would oppose Israel to be taken off the map.

most of the arab world would prefer to take Israel off the map. That's undeniable. The question is, whould more happiness ensue from such an event. say, Israel is overrun by the palestinians. does that improve the situation of millions of people in the arab world? not by bit. They still live in dirt poor conditions, the women are still abused, the people are still opressed, children are still born into overpopulating countries, etc.

meanwhile the citizens of Israel suffer from either a corrupt regime that occupies them, or from being refugees in other countries.

Think once again, and realize that I am right.

[DanielXY]

Ok maybe in the case of Israel it is discussable if it would lead to more happyness or not.
But I was more talking about it in general than a specific example:
If the mayjority chooses they like to commit genocide on a people (for whatever reasons) it is the right thing to do if you think Utilitarian -> Mob Rule

[Az]

If the mayjority chooses they like to commit genocide on a people

If that would somehow increase the amount of human happiness, I'd agree. But I how can it?! The fact that they want it, doesn't mean that their life would be a lot better, there is no way that the improvement in their lives ( in terms of happiness) because of that could be great enough to make ammends for the murder of millions of people.