Venezuelan opposition march

[El León]

Agree completely, AIFLD does not exist anymore, the AFL has moved to a more coherent stance (amnesty, finally! it took them a while!)

The new international wing of the AFL has a very different strcture (and function) than in those days but...
I would not say that IBT is reformed in anyway, though, and that is true of most of the "brotherhoods," which except for the Teamsters are fortunately not as large.
Which goes towards my point. Many spooks and old guarders are still hanging around. The day I feel reassured is when the AIFLD days are publicly condemned. Then, when incidents like that with the CTV happen, I will be more comfortable. BTW, CTV receives a lot of funds, if I am not mistaken - and these increased after Chávez threatened to mess with the oil prices.

[Giancarlo]

Chegitz, that is all lies and commie propaganda.

The CIA says otherwise. I trust the CIA more. Afterall the CIA is the very reliable. It had to stop communist conspiracies though.

Latest economic news from Chile:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/dowjones/20021218/bs_dowjones/200212181445000801

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021211/ap_on_go_pr_wh/chile_us_trade_5

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Sprayber


Comments like this makes me wonder how you consider yourself any better.

Well - it is one thing to argue that conservative economic policies would be better for South American nations, it is quite another to express admiration for a fascist dictator who comitted crimes against humanity. That is stepping over the line in my book - it is far beyond the bounds of reasoned debate and can only be the utterance of somebody so shallow that they are incapable of understanding evil when they meet it, or of someone who just doesn't give a hoot about anyone else.

How would you feel, Sprayber, if Fez had expressed similar admiration for Hitler? Would you feel as charitable? Or do you think that admiration for such despicable figures is somehow excusable and that we should say nothing.

If Fez really has the courage of his convictions he should leave for Chile and present himself to the relatives of Pinochet's victims - I doubt they would confine themselves to mere words.

[chequita guevara]

El Leon, the Teamsters are very reformed. Now, given that the mob had total control from the time Hoffa Sr was shoved out to the time of the consent decree means that's a relative term. A lot of the old guard still has power in the union, and Hoffa Jr is a front man for them. But he's done some unexpectedly progressive things. As well, the reform movement within the Teamsters is still very powerful, and TDU was built by revolutionaries, some of whom I know well. If the government hadn't intervened, the old guard would probably be broken by now. Oh well, not every war can be won in day.

It doesn't surprise me that the union in Venezuela's getting funds from somewhere. I hope someone traces the money and can discredit the union before Venezuela takes too much damage. If it goes back to the CIA, I wonder if Venezeula could sue the US for damages.

[Giancarlo]

Fact 1)

How would you feel, Sprayber, if Fez had expressed similar admiration for Hitler?

I don't.

Fact 2)

If Fez really has the courage of his convictions he should leave for Chile and present himself to the relatives of Pinochet's victims - I doubt they would confine themselves to mere words.

I was present at several military marches in Santiago meaning I show my support for Chile's Military. Also the ends justify the means.

[El León]

Ha ha Fez, I cannot believe your sense of humor today

Did you also sing "Lilly Marlene" with Pinochet? They used to do it in public every now and then.

The ends justify the means, but the just tend to end with the means.

[GePap]

Adam Smith:

Given that I lived for a short time under the admininstration of one 'chicago boy' in Panama and that I spent four years with future 'Chicago Boys', I must say that I was never really impressed with their work.

[Giancarlo]

Well... the Chilean Army still goose steps.

The ends justify the means, but the just tend to end with the means.

The ends do justify the means, Machevelli was correct.

[El León]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
El Leon, the Teamsters are very reformed. Now, given that the mob had total control from the time Hoffa Sr was shoved out to the time of the consent decree means that's a relative term. A lot of the old guard still has power in the union, and Hoffa Jr is a front man for them. But he's done some unexpectedly progressive things. As well, the reform movement within the Teamsters is still very powerful, and TDU was built by revolutionaries, some of whom I know well. If the government hadn't intervened, the old guard would probably be broken by now. Oh well, not every war can be won in day.

It doesn't surprise me that the union in Venezuela's getting funds from somewhere. I hope someone traces the money and can discredit the union before Venezuela takes too much damage. If it goes back to the CIA, I wonder if Venezeula could sue the US for damages.

Don't get me wrong, I would be the last person to bash the AFL and yes, if Hoffa jr. is behaving himself its because TDU is coming after him. Don't trust the guy at all... But most of the locals have renewed their leadership for the better. But we must keep on our toes for the old guard, and keep our eyes open... As in Venezuela, you probably can't trace it back directly to the CIA (and less so, in the new structure, the decision to fund), but someone has gotta give the AFL a hard time about this. Nowadays, I think they will listen.

[Adam Smith]

Chegitz:

You posted that article some time back, and my criticism of it remains the same. Chile's economy at the time depended heavily on the price of copper. Allende's policies appeared to have succeeded because the price of copper was at an historical high. Chicago policies appeared to have failed because the price of copper was low. Chicago policies since Allende, as I mentioned in my post, succeded in spite of low copper prices.

Gepap:

What, specifically, to you object to? Also, didnt you say you did not take econ courses at UC since you felt they assumed a level of prior subject knowledge you did not have?

[GePap]

Ahh, Adam, you are speaking to a Political Scientist, who never had any interest of taking Econ classes. All the knowledge I have of the UofC econ classes come from my dealings with the hordes of econ. folks here. Actualy, the UofC does have good econ classes for beginners, but they are not really for Econ folks. (basic econ is 201, these classes are 195,196), but even then I had no interest in them.



I am sure a fellow eocn. individual, such as Che will provide you with better material for debate.

[Dr. Nick]

let my country run Latin America again.

Oh yes, wait, they've made such an example of efficiency and efficacy when the Presitge went down eh, great working government Spain has.

Where did you get this from? I happened to visit Chile on several dozen occasions. And I don't see any of this.

In 1990, when Pinochet stepped down, Chile's economy was destroyed and they were as well off as Argentina is right now. Pinochet may have fixed during the 70s, but the Chilean economy is doing good ok thanks to measures taken in the 1990s and thanks to the stable price of copper.

You are a DL, I never seen you around here before. DL alert. Whose is it this time?

What a fool...

So that tells you I have seen Latin American politics at its best. And almost got shot in the process.

Boohoo, cry us a river. It's also a pity they missed.

Onto the actual point, the only reason to oust Chavez would be if the opposition is any better, but they're not. They're surely just as corrupt and interest oriented as Chavez is, so they may as well honour the constitution and have elections when they're supposed to take place. If anything, Chavez should ammend his cabinet or something. But the opposition is just as much a pile of shyte as Chavez is.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by El Awrence


Oh yes, wait, they've made such an example of efficiency and efficacy when the Presitge went down eh, great working government Spain has.

You should push the complaint on two other governments that were causing logistical problems. First off the flagship country of the ship was causing problems and so was Portugal. Spain couldn't just go out there and salvage the vessel. Additionally, the ship would of split in half anyways. As a leftist you also ignore the fact that if the ship was raised it could of caused a even more hazardous spill. Also should I bring up some famous oil spills recognizing the stupidity of the Argentine federal government? 1998 I believe was the time of the spill on the river... the Argentine government didn't even act until it was far too late.

In 1990, when Pinochet stepped down, Chile's economy was destroyed and they were as well off as Argentina is right now. Pinochet may have fixed during the 70s, but the Chilean economy is doing good ok thanks to measures taken in the 1990s and thanks to the stable price of copper.

The Chilean economy doing superbly today is in part of reforms established in the early 80s. You are correct partily. Chile's economy was destroyed in 1973. Why don't you follow the same path Chile did with reforms? From the mid 1980s to 1999, GDP growth averaged +8 - +10%. With a brief recession in 2000 I believe, growth returned in 2001. Chile has always been the model I cite for other economies in the doldrums.

You know I actually think you are a smart guy despite having political beliefs a little bit different than mine... you just hate me because of things I said to you in the past. I could say I am sorry, but that would certainly not be enough for some of the awful things I have said. Please forgive me.

[El León]

Courts just ordered Venezuelan oil workers back to work.

Makes me wonder if they don't comply if Chavez will use approved US republican measures to deal with them (i.e. Reagan with air traffick controlers or what Bush proposed to the Longshoremen.)

edit - gotta get that spelling right.

[Dr. Nick]

You should push the complaint on two other governments that were causing logistical problems. First off the flagship country of the ship was causing problems and so was Portugal. Spain couldn't just go out there and salvage the vessel. Additionally, the ship would of split in half anyways. As a leftist you also ignore the fact that if the ship was raised it could of caused a even more hazardous spill. Also should I bring up some famous oil spills recognizing the stupidity of the Argentine federal government? 1998 I believe was the time of the spill on the river... the Argentine government didn't even act until it was far too late.

Ahem. Did I even suggest raising the ship? Or trying to salvage it? No. But the Spanish government didn't even show up at the disaster area for like 2 weeks at least after it had happened. They didn't even have trained specialists working in the coasts that were hit. They didn't do ANYTHING. For crying out loud, they had to be bailed out by FRANCE.

The Chilean economy doing superbly today is in part of reforms established in the early 80s. You are correct partily. Chile's economy was destroyed in 1973. Why don't you follow the same path Chile did with reforms?

Because, to begin with, I can do nothing. Secondly, Argentina does not have a massive mining industry and minerals are not barricaded against in the US and the EU, which I can't say the same for agricultural goods.

And what I did say is that Chile's economy was destroyed in 1990. Nineteen-ninety in case you're reading numbers wrong. That's just when Pinocheat was ready to hand power over to Aylwin AFAIK. And poverty, screwed up balances and the like were an important problem.