Chechnya - do they deserve independence?

[Lord Merciless]

Who cares?

You Euros are jealous about countries that have larger territories. Subconsciously, you Euros want all of them to distintegrate so that European countries don't seem too small by comparison.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Who cares?

You Euros are jealous about countries that have larger territories. Subconsciously, you Euros want all of them to distintegrate so that European countries don't seem too small by comparison.

Yes. That's also, why most of us support an independent state of Palestine. Because Israel is so awful large that we're jealous.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

Yes. That's also, why most of us support an independent state of Palestine. Because Israel is so awful large that we're jealous.

I only pointed out one factor. But the general trend is that you guys want every country to disintegrate.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
I only pointed out one factor. But the general trend is that you guys want every country to disintegrate.

If you wish to believe this bs, you're welcome.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


What about Native Americans? Will you gladly give up your land if they want independence?

Poor Tibet

[RGBVideo]

Poor Tibet

[threadjacking mode]
Wtf's actually deal with Tibet & Nepal? Are they 2 different places? I've heard (I dare to claim that from quite reliable sources)
that
(a) there are maoist rebels spreading violence in Nepal
(b) some biggie prince killed the whole royal family at Nepal 2 or 3 years ago.
(c) Tibet was invaded by Chinese in the 40's by Mao Zedong
(d) Mt. Everest is located in Tibet
(e) Mt. Everest is located in Nepal.

Wtf?

[Mihai]

Chechens deserve self-determination as any other nation. Remember "black are too stupid to take care of themselfs, therefore is better for them to be slaves and white people take care for them".

In 1991 Chechens had independence de facto just because Dudaiev was smart enough to gater loyal armed men around Grozni airport - there was a plane from Moscow full of russian paras. The paratoopers realised that they were sitting ducks and they will be all killed if they try to get out of the plane, so they refueled and went back. Some of you forget that Russia never recognise de jure Chechenya independence. That means that Russia just wait for the right time to crush the rebelion. With Damocle's sword over their country, moderate chechens had little chances to impose themself.

Accusation of terorism is a very powerful propaganda weapon this days. It is used by Russia in the Chechenya problem and by Israel in the palestinian problem. They says "they are terrorist and therefore they have no rights". Correct would be "they have rights, but because of the terrorist threats we had to limit those rights until the problem is resolved".

Mt. Everest is located at the border between China (Tibet) and Nepal.

[Ned]

Mihai, Chechnya had its independence. Had they then behaved responsibly, they would still be independent. But instead of living peacefully with its neighbors, Chechnya then began to make war on its neighbor Dagestan. Russia had no choice but to do what it did.

The Chechen's also seem to have close ties to OBL and al Qaida. A lot of them were found in Afganistan.

In my opinion, so long as the war against terror goes on, Chechnya must be watched carefully. I presume at some time in the future, the Russians will grant Chechnya independence. But before it does, the Chechens will have to demostrate the capacity for self government. They haven't shown that capacity yet.

[Harovan]

Ned, Chechnya never had independence, at least not in the XXth or XXIst centuries. What they had was some half-hearted autonomy, still under the thumb of the colonial power Russia. What means autonomy and how it is different from independence, is visible in the conflict between Palestinians and Israelis as well. Btw, I think I know Russia good enough, I have close familiar bonds to it and lived there for years, and I think that they never ever will grant Chechnya independence, if they aren't enforced to.

And IMHO it's wrong to say "the Chechens" have close ties to OBL/Al Qaida. That would be condemning a people for the deeds of some criminals, and would be the same like "the Afghans have supported OBL", "the Palestinians are terrorists" etc. What you mean are the Chechen separatists, and with that you are undoubtly right.

[Mihai]

Originally posted by Ned
Mihai, Chechnya had its independence. Had they then behaved responsibly, they would still be independent. But instead of living peacefully with its neighbors, Chechnya then began to make war on its neighbor Dagestan. Russia had no choice but to do what it did.

Sir Ralph already answer to that, but please tell us when and by what treaty Chechnya became independent.
As an example, Romania declared itself independent in 1877, but became (recognised de jure) independent in 1878 at Berlin conference.

I presume at some time in the future, the Russians will grant Chechnya independence. But before it does, the Chechens will have to demostrate the capacity for self government. They haven't shown that capacity yet.

Putin or any other russian officials didn't say a word about granting Chechnya independence in future. They consider Chechnya as part of Russian Federation.

Remember "black are too stupid to take care of themselfs, therefore is better for them to be slaves and white people take care for them"

Untill Russia demonstrate that they can control their mafia who is active in Russia and outside, we cannot grant Russia independece.

[Ned]

I don't know the Russians as well as others, but I still suggest that given good behavior and time, Chechnya would have been granted some kind of formal autonomy or independence.

I really don't know how to distinguish between those Chechens who were with OBL, who invaded Dagestan, who blew up apartment buildings, who blew up parades and who conducted the recent assault in Moscow from the so-called "good" Chechens.

For example, back in the days of Dagestan, had the government mobilized against the Islamic army and fought with the Russians instead of with the fundamentalists, I would begin to agree with you.

The problem is similar to Arafat. He either is supporting terrorism or he is doing nothing effective to stop it. The Israeli's have produced proof that he was in fact supporting at least some of the terrorists.

I suspect the same proof can be found in Chechnya - linking the govrnment to the "terrorists."

As to Russia, I suspect most Russians believe they must occupy Chechnya because it is a threat to the peace and security of Russia. In the long run, I believe Russia will eventually let the Chechens go free in some form - autonomy at first. Independence in time.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Ned
As to Russia, I suspect most Russians believe they must occupy Chechnya because it is a threat to the peace and security of Russia. In the long run, I believe Russia will eventually let the Chechens go free in some form - autonomy at first. Independence in time.

Do you actually believe this Ned? Now I'm not Russian, but I do remember hearing most Russian politicians at the time saying that Chechnya was a part of the Russian Federation and will be forever. Russia is not going to regain what they believe is their rightful stature in the world by letting pieces of it go. Your far too optimstic about the prospect of Chechnya getting independence by peaceful means. What will actually happen is what has happened in the past. It will continue to be a bleeding wound for Russia but one they will bear because they cannot conceive of ever letting it go. Oh and remember Ned, it is Russian bombs that have reduced Grozny to ruin, not terrorist bombs. They will never be forgiven for that just like the Israelies can never be forgiven for leveling the West Bank. Right or wrong both will always be hated for that.

[Ramo]

Ramo you really are a prize ass!

I'm sure you read every single post in every single thread you post in (particularly when it's several pages long). Sometimes, I have stuff to do outside of Apolyton, so only read the posts addressed to me. Imagine that.

Yes, it all looks highly suss...

However, there were also then insurgent strikes into Dagestan, numerous hijacks and lots of hostage taking as well - if you'd like to address those too...

That's true, but the response was immensely disproportionate.

Funny, last I heard the Hawai'ians only wanted Hawai'i?

But pro-independence Chechens comprise a majority in Chechnya. Pro-independence Hawaiians don't comprise a majority in Hawaii.

Ah well that's only because the US did such a good job colonising the place with imported labour and overrunning the local population...

Yep. The subjugation of native Hawaiians was horrible, but for the most part is past the US gov't.

That's why there was that coup in Fiji, and racial flare-ups in Bhutan. The natives are worried that the Indians and Nepalese respectively will become the majorities in their own countries and that they will lose the right to self determination in their own country - one reason why Israel doesn't want the right of return for Palestinian Refugees...

Well, that's not quite the same thing. US businesses exploited the hell out of the native Hawaiians, which I see as the primary problem. On the other hand, people ought to be able to immigrate where they choose. Self-determination of nationalities is nonsense.

By fighting amongst themselves and allowing the situation to arise...

The armed opposition to the Chechen government wasn't very powerful until Russia started assisting it...

But then a lot of that has also happened to the ethnic Russians in (or were in) Chechnya - I mean it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that if you've got Chechen Terrorists running around hacking the heads off kidnapped Westerners, they're probably not above meting out the stuff you mentioned on the 'invader' civilians...

The ethnic Russians certain weren't treated very well by the Chechen government, but I haven't heard anything as serious as the Russian army's actions in Chechnya happening at a significant frequency to Russians living in Chechnya (IIRC, most moved to Russia after Chechnya broke off from Russia).

Personally I think both parties are to blame to a greater or lesser extent - pointing the finger is not going to solve nothing and only serve to extend the suffering of the civilians of both sides in Chechnya.

Agreed.

I think the ultimate goal of Chechnya should be a period of autonomy followed by the possibility of peace.

Err.. how could autonomy come before peace?

The question is can they be trusted not to export their terror beyond their borders like they've done in the past?

Russia should try declaring its intentions in annexing Chechnya absolutely over. After Lebed's deal, the question of independence was originally deferred until 2001 (before the peace ended again). As Mihai pointed out, this only insures the warlords will stay in power.

[Ned]

Sprayber, Yes, I believe what I say. What have we learned from history. No country can indefinitely occupy a hostile population. Something has to give. Historically, the hostile population was simply wiped out or sold into slavery. This is not a serious option for the Russians. What they have in Chechnya is another "Afghanistan." I think they will figure it out and make peace. But this peace will involve a plan to let Chechnya go free.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Ned
Sprayber, Yes, I believe what I say. What have we learned from history. No country can indefinitely occupy a hostile population. Something has to give. Historically, the hostile population was simply wiped out or sold into slavery. This is not a serious option for the Russians. What they have in Chechnya is another "Afghanistan." I think they will figure it out and make peace. But this peace will involve a plan to let Chechnya go free.

Are you so sure that genocide or ethnic cleansing won't happen again? At least I can imagine the Russians carting off Chechens to some frozen wasteland in Siberia.