Rugby - The Ball's Out!

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Havak
The margin would be better kept inside a converted score for me – after all we don’t know if we will see the same Australia, or indeed the same England.

Whatever happened to english optimism?

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Sounds ok to me.

A simple Win/Lose is also OK for me.

I think the aussies should have a 7 1/2 point start.

It sounds OK, though as I have not seen the Ireland-Australia match nor the England-NZ game I'am lacking some landmarks.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin


When are you leaving Australia for France ?

Give me somewhere to live - preferably semi-rural and where dogs are welcome, a reliable internet connection (preferably cable, for work), and we'll be on the next plane!

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
Give me somewhere to live - preferably semi-rural and where dogs are welcome, a reliable internet connection (preferably cable, for work), and we'll be on the next plane!

Take your reservation, you can live a few kilometers away from Toulouse and think you are living in a rural area. Having a dog or two is considered as being natural especially when you own a garden.

By the way, nowadays all houses are connected to the telephone network in France.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
I have to ask the obvious – who did you feel were the worst offenders on the offside laws? I do feel that the men in black were aware of all the variants of offside but had decided they clearly applied only to other teams.

I also admit I saw us infringe offside several times. We weren’t quite as blatant at flying into the sides of rucks though?

I don't recall one team being offside any more than the other, I just think they approached it differently. You're right - the ABs were entering from the side, but the English line often seemed to be up earlier than it should have been.

One thing I thought Kaplan was poor at was policing straight throws in the line out – some (both sides I concede!) we absolutely shocking.

I think we've kicked this around before. There's crooked throwing in just about every match played these days. How often do you see the jumpers leaning and stretching a mile sideways to catch their own throw? The throw must, by definition, be crooked. A straight throw - or even a straight-ish throw - would, I'd've thought, be taken around the line of the shoulder or just outside. I'm not sure what inspires the refs to jump on it when they do, but it seems to me that the penalised throws are often a lot straighter than the crooked throws they allow. It's beyond me why it happens. The ref is positioned watching for four main things - the tunnel, the direction of the throw, numbers and the defence staying back the required distance. Yet the first two - probably the easiest calls to make - are the ones they most often get wrong. I think it has to boil down to ref laziness.

It’s going to be a real scratch set of loose forwards for you on Saturday then?

As far as I can tell, the available (fit) talent amounts to:

Locks: Harrison, Giffen, Vickerman
Flankers: Smith, Cockbain, Croft

This is where the David Lyons/Phil Waugh selection decision comes back to bite. Shades of the English touring Ashes team. Waugh was fit but not, they believed, rugby fit, and left behind; while Lyons wasn't fit but selected in the expectation he would overcome his injury problem. Which he hasn't. And, while Lyons was selected mainly to be groomed to take over Finnegan's flanker role, he was also to be the back-up for Kefu at #8. Thus we have no back-up #8. It's Kefu or no one.

Wilko is becoming a fairly good midfield general but the back line oftens looks like it has no cohesion.

It makes for an odd but interesting spectacle. I'm exaggerating slightly, but it was as if there were two England teams out there - backs and forwards. With the ABs - and the Wallabies when they're playing well - there's a seamlessness. Or, if truth be told, the forwards are setting up for the backs. Which, I suppose, was always one of the definitions of SH rugby. If England finds the glue that welds the two outfits together, they'll have a mighty team because there's so much talent in the respective outfits.

I was also surprised Robinson was kept quite so quiet in such an open match. I feel Stimpson might have been the better option – definitely not as fast but he reads the game better defensively – he may well have been in better position for the Howlett break-away as Robinson was looking for the offensive option on the other wing.

Frankly, my idea of a waking nightmare would be having to mark any of that AB backline in the form they were in.

Utterly terrifying. He impressed me far more than Jonah did despite the tries the giant scored.

These days, I suspect, Jonah needs the situation set up for him. Howlett can just burn you from anywhere.

And hell I have to mention it but grounding the ball on the opposing players leg generally doesn’t score you know.

That was an interesting one. It seemed to me, from the myriad replays, that the ball had been grounded before the momentum took Jonah's arm - and the ball - onto the oppo's leg.

I’ve just read Larkham is a doubt for the weekend because of a hamstring injury. The butchers bill for this tour is becoming very costly?

The extent of the injury - if there is one - is unknown at this stage. He felt a twinge. It wasn't why he was replaced against Ireland - he just wasn't achieving anything on the field. And he wasn't on his Pat Malone in that regard.

I see Gregan arrives back late Wed so he gets to attend one training session and the Captains run? As you say not ideal preparation. Perhaps he is good enough to ride it however.

His class isn't the problem. The team's performance is the problem, and, as I indicated in one of the earlier posts, their apparent inability to adapt their tactics within a game boils down, I think, to decision-making which amounts to leadership. The important work this week, I'd've thought, would have been done off the field.

I’m starting to wonder what kind of line up we will see to be honest?

Take out Finnegan - Harrison replaced him as lock last weekend - and subject to Larkham's fitness, probably a very similiar team to that which lined up against Ireland. They were the best, fit players available.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Good awareness of the fullback not being there on his part.

It was a sublime example of what seems now to be called "vision". Only the very best seem to have it. I suppose it means the capacity to be able to do what you're doing while, at the very same instant, spotting an opportunity, weighing it up and deciding. Oh, and pulling it off.

I'm thinking straight win for the France-NZ game???

That's fair.

And for the England-Australia game...???

Can England do it twice in a row? Psychologically, last week was their big hurdle. If England can do it twice in a row, and unless the Wallabies lift themselves about 75%, I can see England winning by 15 or more.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia
I think the aussies should have a 7 1/2 point start.

You didn't see them against Ireland thus I shall refrain from mocking you. As things currently stand, they would need twice that start. In purely fiscal terms, I would be backing England anyway.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
Take your reservation, you can live a few kilometers away from Toulouse and think you are living in a rural area. Having a dog or two is considered as being natural especially when you own a garden.

By the way, nowadays all houses are connected to the telephone network in France.

The temptation! The temptation!

BTW, I saw a replay of one of the French tries against the Boks. Starting deep in their own half, ending in a kick across field that was gathered and the try scored. Top stuff.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Now you know those tricky Aussies – all the injuries and the lost game might be psychological ploys by Jones?

While Eddie is conceding they're not playing well - and expressing disappointment in certain (unnamed) players - he's also, unfortunately, criticising referees. We've had large penalty counts against us in both games - by Kiwi refs on each occasion - and Eddie is suggesting the refs have abandoned their usual SH methods.

Sorry, Eddie, not good enough. Classic example. In the Pumas match, Noriega was warned a number of times for not binding properly. He was hanging onto the oppo prop's arm. He continued to do it. He was penalised. He kept doing it. He was penalised again. On one occasion, it cost us the put-in within reach of the try line.

I watched Poido's commentary against the Irish and he found most of the penalties warranted, which is saying something.

The margin would be better kept inside a converted score for me – after all we don’t know if we will see the same Australia, or indeed the same England.

Well, indeed, but inside a converted try is ridiculous, and you know it. Apply your own guidelines - history, rankings, home ground, form. What margin do you come up with?

[finbar]

Mmmmmm. My weekend wasn't the total weekend from hell, after all. I just remembered to check on my Plough Boys. A 40-19 result over London Irish. I suppose that will have to suffice.

And Leeds continue to hang in there. Good grief.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
The temptation! The temptation!

Just do it !

BTW, I saw a replay of one of the French tries against the Boks. Starting deep in their own half, ending in a kick across field that was gathered and the try scored. Top stuff.

I agree, a beautiful try and a clever one at this !

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin

Just do it !

Tell Mrs finbar that! She's relatively happy to spend a couple of years living over there except she says she'd miss her 28 year old daughter.

Damn children!

I agree, a beautiful try and a clever one at this !

The player who received the kick was onside, I assume?

Apart from that, what the hell were you doing awake and at your computer at 4.20am?

[Havak]

You're right - the ABs were entering from the side, but the English line often seemed to be up earlier than it should have been.

I can’t disagree with you there. It has very much crept into their play. I very much trying they are being coached to emulate the teams they aspire to compete with.

I think it has to boil down to ref laziness.

You may have a point. At the very least they decide early in a game what they will look for – and more crucially what they won’t.

As an aside I was absolutely gob-smacked Saturday when the ABs gave away a free kick for numbers in the line out – that’s so basic it is just silly?

Locks: Harrison, Giffen, Vickerman. Flankers: Smith, Cockbain, Croft

That’s not a bad line up. Is Giffen match fit? I think he and the Bok are a decent pairing. Justin as ever is a nicer las than he appears on the field but I am not convinced he is up to a re-union with the Englihs locks on current form.

Smith – well pure quality of course – but it will be Moodys role to drive him off the ball so that may be a rather tasty little scenario? Cockbain is a decent jobbing forward isn’t he? But Croft is an unknown quantity.

I think the lack of cover may tell Saturday – it’s going to be hard up front and it would be nice to have replacement options in the pack.

Having said that I am grateful Waugh is missing – a tenacious physical little pit bull he is. A shame I will miss seeing Lyons though.

For our part I believe Dallaglio is a doubt. He took a very hard knock is the frantic melee at the end of the game Saturday. The team will be announced later – I’ll let you know

If England finds the glue that welds the two outfits together, they'll have a mighty team because there's so much talent in the respective outfits.

Again the point is excellent. Yourselves and NZ play XV man rugby when you get it right. England play ‘eights’ and ‘sevens’ at the same time even when they are getting it ‘right’. I find it hard to understand. I’m fingering the current centres slightly because, whilst talented, neither is an organiser in any way. If we hard a Kafer or a Howard there it might be more cohesive. Who are your incumbent centres this tour? Do they have English blood?

These days, I suspect, Jonah needs the situation set up for him. Howlett can just burn you from anywhere.

Tell me about it. I think I’m still in shock!

It wasn't why he was replaced against Ireland - he just wasn't achieving anything on the field. And he wasn't on his Pat Malone in that regard.

But to say that is unusual for him is rather an understatement? Perhaps he was carrying something uncomfortable.

their apparent inability to adapt their tactics within a game boils down, I think, to decision-making which amounts to leadership

Hmm that is rather worrying as you sound like you are describing a Dallaglio or Dawson led England. That’s not good. Trust me.

I suppose it means the capacity to be able to do what you're doing while, at the very same instant, spotting an opportunity, weighing it up and deciding. Oh, and pulling it off.

I love the casual way you added the qualifier there.

If England can do it twice in a row, and unless the Wallabies lift themselves about 75%, I can see England winning by 15 or more.

Well it is possible England can perform like that again but by no way assured. I do find it hard to believe the Wallabies can be that bad again however – that is not in the Aussie nature.

It sounds like you caught the French try I was tipped to. I still haven’t seen it.

I watched Poido's commentary against the Irish and he found most of the penalties warranted, which is saying something.

It speaks volumes!!! Eddie really needs to be careful going for the refs – he does it a little too often I think. It’s rather a classic suggestion as not only is he adding to Aus-Kiwi angst he is suggesting no senior referee in the NH would have been acceptable – all you have to do is read between the lines. I hope the IRB, with a sense of humour, give him McHugh several times in the world cup.

What margin do you come up with?

Am I allowed to include the Luger ‘try’?

I will run the little analysis I use and post later – may I please exclude the 1998 fixture down there (or England will get a generous start!!!)?

And Leeds continue to hang in there. Good grief.

They were losing 20-3 at one point. I guess when it is going for you it gets on a roll?

We take on your boys this Friday night at our place and I’m not at all confident about it strangely enough.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
At the very least they decide early in a game what they will look for – and more crucially what they won’t.

That would explain the situation, as ridiculous as it sounds. I can understand the odd mistake in the hurly burly of play, but something as fixed and basic as a lineout can't be hard to police.

As an aside I was absolutely gob-smacked Saturday when the ABs gave away a free kick for numbers in the line out – that’s so basic it is just silly?

It's amazing how often it happens. Someone can't count. More likely, someone just isn't paying attention.

That’s not a bad line up. Is Giffen match fit? I think he and the Bok are a decent pairing. Justin as ever is a nicer las than he appears on the field but I am not convinced he is up to a re-union with the Englihs locks on current form.

The Irish was Giffen's first hit out on the tour, so his first game at better than club level since his injury. He got through it, did some nice things, but didn't put anything like a stamp on the game. No Wallaby did. But it would have been a lot to ask of him anyway. So he's fit, but not top rugby fit. Vickerman has terrific potential and Justin remains - well, an enigma. He has the ability to be very good but has a problem producing it consistently.

Smith – well pure quality of course – but it will be Moodys role to drive him off the ball so that may be a rather tasty little scenario? Cockbain is a decent jobbing forward isn’t he? But Croft is an unknown quantity.

Smith tried his hardest last week, as always. I wouldn't want to try to drive him off the ball. Cockbain is never really more than solid and Croft has a big future though whether he's ready for this standard of oppo is moot.

Apparently Larkham will play. Jeremy Paul (hammy) and David Lyons trained lightly, whatever that means. I can't see them risking starting Jeremy Paul and I doubt Lyons is even ready for the bench.

Having said that I am grateful Waugh is missing – a tenacious physical little pit bull he is.

How we're missing him. Hindsight, I suppose, is easy.

For our part I believe Dallaglio is a doubt. He took a very hard knock is the frantic melee at the end of the game Saturday. The team will be announced later – I’ll let you know

I have to say, I didn't think Snorter did a great deal against the ABs.

I find it hard to understand. I’m fingering the current centres slightly because, whilst talented, neither is an organiser in any way. If we hard a Kafer or a Howard there it might be more cohesive.

It hadn't occurred to me - and it should've, because they're the middle men - but the centres could well be a key to the dislocation. You can get centres thinking and playing more like forwards, you can get centres doing the same as backs. Our best centres in recent times - Timmy Horan and Jason Little - were out and out backs. Stirling Mortlock - our best centre now - is another pure back. Umaga of the ABs is yet another. Indeed, Kafer and Howard think and play like backs. Very interesting food for thought.

Who are your incumbent centres this tour? Do they have English blood?

We're down to two - Dan Herbert and Stirling Mortlock - because our other option - Matt Burke - has returned to fullback in Matt Rogers' absence. Rogers, of course, was going to be tried at inside centre. Scary when you've only got two credentialled centres left on tour.

But to say that is unusual for him is rather an understatement? Perhaps he was carrying something uncomfortable.

Even his kicking - terrific against the Pumas - was ordinary. He had an off day. Everyone did.

Hmm that is rather worrying as you sound like you are describing a Dallaglio or Dawson led England. That’s not good. Trust me.

Tell me - why would a team that runs into an Irish brick wall for 60 minutes of a game continue to run into the brick wall for the rest of the game? Where does responsibility for onfield decision making lie?

The media here has been interesting. Greg Growden of the SMH, the best rugby writer, called them one-dimensional and uninspired. Which is a fair description. Another writer blamed the ref, claiming it's all a Celtic conspiracy on the basis that the Celt influence on the IRB is forcing SH refs to adopt a NH approach. God knows what his evidence might have been because he didn't produce any. As I said earlier, if Poido can't find fault with a penalty against the Wallabies, there isn't one.

I love the casual way you added the qualifier there.

I've seen that chip over the top and re-gather tried so many times only to fail. That's the fundamental difference.

Well it is possible England can perform like that again but by no way assured. I do find it hard to believe the Wallabies can be that bad again however – that is not in the Aussie nature.

Remember last time? The parallels with this time are terrifying.

It sounds like you caught the French try I was tipped to. I still haven’t seen it.

It's a doozie. [cone of silence mode]I'm sure we can wind up Tamerlin till his eyes pop by suggesting that the player who gathered the kick was offside[/cone of silence mode]

It speaks volumes!!! Eddie really needs to be careful going for the refs – he does it a little too often I think. It’s rather a classic suggestion as not only is he adding to Aus-Kiwi angst he is suggesting no senior referee in the NH would have been acceptable – all you have to do is read between the lines. I hope the IRB, with a sense of humour, give him McHugh several times in the world cup.

I've heard the full interviews with him. I actually don't think he's targeting the NH refs this time. His argument was simply that the SH ref interpreted differently in the NH to the way he had in the SH. In fact, it was related to his statistic about the number of Tests won by home teams - he was suggesting that refs, wherever they're from, interpret according to where they're refereeing, ergo advantaging the home team. Regardless of the bona fides of that argument, I think he should worry more about the way the team is playing - and he's very worried - and less about the refs.

Am I allowed to include the Luger ‘try’?

Interestingly, our telecast of the England - AB match was English with English commentary. I don't know which broadcaster, but one of the commentators, *** the Lomu try question, made reference to the Luger try that, he said, wasn't a try.

I will run the little analysis I use and post later – may I please exclude the 1998 fixture down there (or England will get a generous start!!!)?

My thoughts on your historically-based system are already well known. I'll leave it at that.

We take on your boys this Friday night at our place and I’m not at all confident about it strangely enough.

Your first home loss since single-cell amoebae ruled the earth? Goodoh. I could do with a new sig.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
Damn children!

We should think twice before we do something.

The player who received the kick was onside, I assume?

OF COURSE HE WAS, HE IS FRENCH !

Apart from that, what the hell were you doing awake and at your computer at 4.20am?

Typing my last post.