Germany

[private hudson]

I was merely pointing out the irony behind the Nazi view of perfect people and the fact that none of Gobbels, Hitler, Himmler or Goering fit that category at all.

And although they come from the same racial and ethnic background they were seperate when Hitler was born and are now seperate countries and should be considered as such.

[Mr. President]

Of course they are now and have for a long time been separate countries. My point is exactly that they have the same racial background.

What I find interesting is that we still have ideas of physical perfection now, although couched in more acceptable terms for the current social situation.

[Bereta_Eder]

the really sad fact is that nazi "ideology" was a pervervet cosmotheory - "way of viewing the world" that already existed all over europe.

there was no parthenogenisis.

[KrazyHorse]

Deutschland.

[KrazyHorse]

That's for the original point of thread, not subsequent Holocaust stuff...

[Ned]

Originally posted by private hudson
Ned that's not exactly the entire story, the americans gave money to all of europe without clauses, except the UK. They insisted on us giving up the empire, and even now we owe huge sums of money on debts incurred during WWII that america still holds over us, and we pay interest on that sum. Sure you bailed out Europe don't get me wrong, but you did not do it entirely fairly.

On germany, that remark was stupid, but bush is not entirely innocent of being a dictator. When for example are those prisoners in camp xray to be charged? But he is not comparable to hitler in any way.

Besides that he's too damn tall

At the end of WWII, we asked generally asked all our allies to decolonize.

As to the Marshall Plan, I believe this was intended primarily to rebuild. England was not destroyed like Germany.

As to the prisioners, since when do POW's have to be charged with anything. They stay there until the war is over.

[private hudson]

mmmmmmmmm so we were'nt destroyed like germany, but bankrupting ourselves fighting hitler off for 2 years whilst we waited for you wasn't good enough clearly........... Either way is it fair that we pay billions each year to pay off such a debt that we incurred fighting for the freedom of the world? You would think by now that America would forgive and forget given all the times we have stood together to fight for freedom recently when no-one else backed the US.

On POW's who decides they are that? Who decides when the war is over? How long will it be before you determine whether these people are actually members of the terror neworks and PROVE it? From what Bush sounds like it could be a long time before these wars end, will America hold these people there for years on end, without giving them the opportunity to defend themselves? I don't mind them being held, but America and the west would do better to prove they are above such matters by trying these people and proving thier guilt under law, rather than holding them indefinately. How can you persuade someone that your governmental system is better if you do not show it by according these people a fair trial. Don't get me wrong if they are guilty then send them to jail forever for all I care, but prove this first before you condemn them to an indefinate period of time.

[Ned]

private, I wholly agree that UK's support in Iraq over the last ten years has merited elimination of any remaining WWII debt. However, you have to remember, you started WWII in Europe. Roosevelt told you not to go to war with Germany, but to call a European conference. But you chose the path to war.

I still don't understand why you have to try POWs found on the battlefield. What are we supposed to do, give them lawyers?

[Prometeus]

Originally posted by Mr. President
People from Austria and people from Germany are both German.

Another american "locus communis"...

Anyway, paikdude, i agree partially with you - only that it seems to me that Bush pumped up that side of Rep party to gain something in obscure moves ( Enron ? Halliburton? Who knows? ).

All the world is a small town... what really he hates about us europeans it's we're not part of his chad. He can't control us properly, so...

No to antimericanism, yes to Anti-Bush! If American are like sheeps - where goes the pack leader the other go- it's their own business. But what the heck, we are allies and not puppets, and we should decide with our brain.

[private hudson]

Originally posted by Ned
private, I wholly agree that UK's support in Iraq over the last ten years has merited elimination of any remaining WWII debt. However, you have to remember, you started WWII in Europe. Roosevelt told you not to go to war with Germany, but to call a European conference. But you chose the path to war.

I still don't understand why you have to try POWs found on the battlefield. What are we supposed to do, give them lawyers?

Now hang on a sec there, we did not start WWII. We were not the ones invading every damn country under the sun were we? We fought Hitler because talking did not work, hell nothing worked with hitler and especially not a damn conference like Munich in 1938. There Hitler promised to stop invading sovereign nations, 1 year later he invades poland. Somewhere I might add that Britain had a treaty to defend and Hitler knew this so he must have known we might declare war but did he stop?

What was america doing to stop hitler at the time? that's right damn little whatsoever! Hitler began concentration camps PRIOR to WWII, would it have been advisable to let him continue indefinately whilst he took over one nation after another, killing jews and other minorities whilst we stood to one side whistling? We recognised the threat of hitler and stood up to him (with France of course) and had we not he would have been a lot more powerful when America would finally have had to deal with him.

You may not know it, but we tried "talking" to hitler for 6 years and we got nowhere with it. Talking more whilst hitler and Stalin carved up Poland would have been stupid. America on the other hand was busy ignoring these actions, presumably because no-one had yet threatened you!

And to the POW thing. Well you don't have to..... but it would I believe give their prison terms some legality and also prove their guilt. Having them there indefinately only heightens the calls of the extremists that you are not the all magnificent democracy you are claiming to be

[Adalbertus]

We fought Hitler because talking did not work

You didn't talk to Hitler the right way. AFAIK he dreamt about England joining the Germanic cause.

[Heresson]

[quote]
Kind of ironic really Germany's master race would consist of blonde haired, blue eyed tall athletic men from Germany. Hitler was small, brown haired, dunno what eyes, but from Austria.
[quote]

There was a Polish proverb.
How should an example of german Rase of Masters look?
Blond as Hitler, tall as Goebbels, slim as Goering

You didn't talk to Hitler the right way. AFAIK he dreamt about England joining the Germanic cause.

If He's seen a single English women he'd doubt that English are Germanic.

[Ned]

Originally posted by private hudson


Now hang on a sec there, we did not start WWII. We were not the ones invading every damn country under the sun were we? We fought Hitler because talking did not work, hell nothing worked with hitler and especially not a damn conference like Munich in 1938. There Hitler promised to stop invading sovereign nations, 1 year later he invades poland. Somewhere I might add that Britain had a treaty to defend and Hitler knew this so he must have known we might declare war but did he stop?

What was america doing to stop hitler at the time? that's right damn little whatsoever! Hitler began concentration camps PRIOR to WWII, would it have been advisable to let him continue indefinately whilst he took over one nation after another, killing jews and other minorities whilst we stood to one side whistling? We recognised the threat of hitler and stood up to him (with France of course) and had we not he would have been a lot more powerful when America would finally have had to deal with him.

You may not know it, but we tried "talking" to Hitler for 6 years and we got nowhere with it. Talking more whilst Hitler and Stalin carved up Poland would have been stupid. America on the other hand was busy ignoring these actions, presumably because no-one had yet threatened you!

After Czechoslovakia, Roosevelt advised Britain to not enter into a war with Germany, but to call a conference of all European nations in the Azores. He would attend. The purpose would be to revisit the Versailles Treaty that the United States never ratified in the first place.

If the United States were part of the negotiations and treaties, Roosevelt probably would have used US influence and power to guarantee the peace in Europe. There is no guarantee of this of course, but the power of the United States has kept the issue of a new European war off the table for the past five decades.

But rather than heed Roosevelt’s remarks, Britain junked its policy of appeasement and began forming defensive alliances with all the remaining countries East of Germany. This included Romania and Poland. I am not sure of the status of Hungary. Britain told these countries to stand firm, that Britain and France would protect them.

As German demands extended to the Corridor, Poland bargained hard with Hitler because they were repeatedly assured of British support. When Hitler gave the Poles and ultimatum - show up in Berlin on Aug. 31 or else, the Poles ignored Hitler.

Of course, the British had made it clear to Hitler that they had a deal with Poland.

Germany then invaded Poland and Britain declared war on Germany.

Now, who caused this war? It depends on your point of view doesn't it? If the Versailles Treaty was "proper," "just" and fully agreed to by Germany, of course Hitler was in the wrong.

But the Versailles treaty was none of these.

I believe WWII was inevitable after Britain rejected Roosevelt's offer of a European conference. Britain chose instead the path to war.

Why did they do it? I think they intended to keep the United States out of European affairs - this and nothing more.

And to the POW thing. Well you don't have to..... but it would I believe give their prison terms some legality and also prove their guilt. Having them there indefinately only heightens the calls of the extremists that you are not the all magnificent democracy you are claiming to be

I don't see how you can give a POW a prison term. This implies they can be released at the end of the term even if the war is still ongoing.

The whole issue of trials for POWs doesn't make sense.

[private hudson]

No i'm sorry I can't agree with you there. I may be biased but as I said hitler was on a crash course with europe. He had retaken the rhineland, taken the sudentanland and all of czechosolvakia when he agreed not to do so, united Germany and Austria and threatened poland. Do you think we did not try to deal with him first? We spent 6 years talking to him and appeasing him whilst america ignored him. then suddenly you expect us to believe you would do anything to stop his antics when you did not before? Why when you stayed out of politics in europe for the post WWI period until then would we put faith in your will or ability to stop him then? We had no need to keep you out of our affairs YOU chose to stay out!

And to the defensive alliances, well that was our measures in place to try to ensure hitler did not continue to make unreasnoble demands on the rest of europe. You have to look at it this way, defensive alliances in themselves threaten no-one unless the countries are invaded. WWII had it's roots in Versailles and the depression that followed, but had hitler used diplomacy and peaceful means to achieve his aims, many of which were unworkable the war would not have occured at all. Restoring the country is one thing, invading sovereign nations is entirely different.

[Ned]

PH, At Munich, the Brits agreed to give the Sudetenland to Germany. Czechoslovakia, of course, was not consulted. NEITHER was the United States. Talk about Hitler and invasions, WTF was this?

Roosevelt was extremely "upset." He called for a European conference with the US in attendance. He strongly advised against a war. He bluntly told England they could not win it.

England rejected everything Roosevelt offered but instead chose a path to war.

Whether WWII could have been avoided if England allowed the US to get involved we will never know. But the path England chose was lead directly to war.