Germany

[Kropotkin]

Not likely that the war (or perhaps a war is a better term) could have been avoided. Hitler and Germany was beyond the point of no return imho.

[Sandman]

If the United States were part of the negotiations and treaties, Roosevelt probably would have used US influence and power to guarantee the peace in Europe.

Wishful thinking. How does one 'guarantee' peace?

There is no guarantee of this of course, but the power of the United States has kept the issue of a new European war off the table for the past five decades.

Don't forget the power of the USSR.

[Ned]

Kropotkin, What is abundantly clear is that Hitler intended to undo all of the Versailles treaty. The only way to avoid war was to hold a conference or to continue with appeasement.

Hitler did not appear to want a war with England (all those efforts to settle after the war started), but was willing to accept war to achieve his objectives. To the extent that England did not appreciate this, they miscalculated.

If England really believed war was inevitable, they would have done everything in their power to line up at least the United States and preferrably the USSR on their side. But they didn't even make the effort - rejecting Roosevelt's advice and allowing Hitler to enter the non aggression pact with the USSR.

Looking back, one can only conclude that Britain had a screw loose.

[Kropotkin]

Screw loose? Oh no, who cares if the entire world but the UK is under the nazi flag when you got 'splendid isolation'!?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Sandman


Wishful thinking. How does one 'guarantee' peace?

Well, one can't. But if Hitler knows that aggressive moves after a peace conference would be met by the combine forces of the US, England and France, it might have caused him to think twice.

Don't forget the power of the USSR.

Right.

[KrazyHorse]

Ned's pretty much a ****ing loon, Kropotkin. He lost my respect after making about 5 posts in the OT...

(And I respect the likes of Caligastia, faded glory et al....)

[Ned]

Originally posted by Kropotkin
Screw loose? Oh no, who cares if the entire world but the UK is under the nazi flag when you got 'splendid isolation'!?

My god, Kropotkin, you are a war monger. I thought only
Americans were war mongers.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Ned


Well, one can't. But if Hitler knows that aggressive moves after a peace conference would be met by the combine forces of the US, England and France, it might have caused him to think twice.

Like he did when he logically decided to declare war on the US despite being at war with Britain, the Commonwealth nations (Canada, Australa, NZ etc) and the USSR.

[Sandman]

Well, one can't. But if Hitler knows that aggressive moves after a peace conference would be met by the combine forces of the US, England and France, it might have caused him to think twice.

I doubt America would have agreed to send forces to a conflict that for all anyone knew would be a re-run of the First World War.

Right.

Are you saying that the Soviet power and influence did not keep the peace in Europe? They kept order in their half, America kept order in it's half.

[Boris Godunov]

EDIT nm

[Ned]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin


Like he did when he logically decided to declare war on the US despite being at war with Britain, the Commonwealth nations (Canada, Australa, NZ etc) and the USSR.

You have a good point here. But, you have to consider that the war had been going for more than two years by the end of 1941, and on the whole, Germany was doing quite well. Besides, with Lend Lease, the US was already in the war to an extent.

But also, Hitler had an obligation to declare war under the Axis pact with Japan.

So the fact that he declared war against the US in late 1941 then does not necessarily mean he would declare war against the US in 1939. Hitler wanted to undo Versailles and attack the home of communism, the USSR. He had no desire to fight the US.

[Boris Godunov]

Why was Hitler obligated to honor the pact with Japan, when 1) Japan was the clear aggressor with the U.S., and 2) Japan had not honored its pact with Germany and declared war on the USSR?

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Ned
You have a good point here. But, you have to consider that the war had been going for more than two years by the end of 1941, and on the whole, Germany was doing quite well.

Means little in logical terms. If you are in a fight for survival, the fewer enemies the better. Attacking the US and bringing down its full wrath was stupid at best - more likely suicidal insanity.

But also, Hitler had an obligation to declare war under the Axis pact with Japan.

So Hitler is allowed to honour loose alliances in order to go to war, but Britain and France aren't? That's a double standard and you know it.

So the fact that he declared war against the US in late 1941 then does not necessarily mean he would declare war against the US in 1939.

Hitler would attack anyone who opposed him. He said as much.

Hitler wanted to undo Versailles and attack the home of communism, the USSR.

He was a megalomaniac madman who hated Slavs, Jews, gypsies and a host of others. His only desire was for power and the destruction of races that did not fit his ideals.

Versaille was a matter of pride, but had that been avenged peacefully he would have continued on the path to total annihilation.

He had no desire to fight the US.

Hitler partly blamed the US and Wilson for the Versaille treaty:

History has given its verdict about Wilson. His name will always be associated with the most base betrayal of a pledge in history. The result was the disruption of national life, not only in the so-called vanquished countries, but among the victors as well. Because of this broken pledge, which alone made the imposed Treaty of Versailles possible, countries were torn apart, cultures were destroyed and the economic life of all was ruined

And he blamed Roosevelt for the lack of peace in Europe:

The American president increasingly used his influence to create conflicts, intensify existing conflicts, and, above all, to keep conflicts from being resolved peacefully. For years this man looked for a dispute anywhere in the world, but preferably in Europe, that he could use to create political entanglements with American economic obligations to one of the contending sides, which would then steadily involve America in the conflict and thus divert attention from his own confused domestic economic policies.


Those above extracts from his declaration of war in 1941, as are the following. They show he felt he had to fight the US to stop their interference. If the US had interfered in 1939 Hitler would doubtless feel compelled to fight them.

Despite the years of intolerable provocations by President Roosevelt, Germany and Italy sincerely and very patiently tried to prevent the expansion of this war and to maintain relations with the United States. But as a result of his campaign, these efforts have failed.

Faithful to the provisions of the Tripartite Pact of 27 September 1940, German and Italy have consequently now finally been forced to join together on the side of Japan in the struggle for the defense and preservation of the freedom and independence of our nations and empires against the United States of America and Britain.

The three powers have accordingly concluded the following agreement which was signed today in Berlin

[Boris Godunov]

I doubt Hitler would have declared war on the UK first. His goal was to make Germany supreme on the continent, unite all German-speaking lands (and those closely related, like the lowlands and Denmark) into a "Greater Germany." He did not welcome the UK's war declaration, and made repeated attempts to sue for peace, like dropping Hess into the UK via parachute with a peace offer. He knew the UK would be a formidable opponent that would tax his resources. So when the Brits declared war, he believed the best tactic was to hit the UK with everything he could to hopefully bring British opinion agains the war and bring the country to its knees via a naval blockade with u-boats, etc. Unfortunately, he crippled the Luftwaffe's ability to destroy the RAF through his own stupid orders.

His invasion of the USSR wasn't suicidal, either, it was a desperate gamble. He needed fuel to continue the war, and he believed the best way to secure it was by seizing the oil fields in the southern USSR.

The war declaration against the U.S. is still a mystery to me. SD's claim of suicidal tendencies does seem to have merit. It looks like Hitler intentionally set up his regime to fail so he could achieve some sort of mythic, martyred status. The Lost Cause has a powerful allure. His miscalculation, however, was that he didn't realize the world would come to see his genocide as the monstrous act of a half-mad, evil man rather than some sort of glorious crusade.

[Ned]

SD, I don't think Hitler was fighting for survival in 1941. As to honoring alliances, you seemed to miss my point. England deliberately set about setting up the mutual protection pacts with the likes of Poland in 1939, after Roosevelt warned against such moves in favor of a conference. The problem was, England failed to include the US (unlikely given Roosevelt's desires for peace and a conference) and the USSR. I think England was delusional in thinking either that it could beat Germany all by itself or that Hitler would not attack Poland or Romania with only England's and France's threats to intervene.

By the time Germany declared war, Roosevelt had indeed formed a secret aliance with Churchill and embarked on aggression against the Axis, exactly as described by Hitler.

As to Wilson, the United States judgment of Wilson is the same as that of Hitler's.

I just scanned through Mein Kampf for mention of Wilson. He is mentioned once, in a positive light.

Of course Hitler was a racist megalomaniac. But whether he could have convinced the Germany Army to declare war on the United States in 1939 is another thing. In fact, Mein Kampf is all about accomplishing Germany's aim while avoiding another world war.

The evidence is clear. England rejected peace (Roosevelt's offer) and deliberately embarked on a plan of war with Germany.

It is interesting to read in the diplomatic correspondence the fact that Hitler was fully aware of England's encirclement policy and was livid. Many were predicting that Hitler would sneak-attack the English fleet to attempt a knock-out blow. This is exactly what happened at Pearl Harbor two years later.