Should Israel Have Been in Europe Instead

[Datajack Franit]

Some people left because the arab armies asked them to leave, to "clear the coast" for an invasion that never came. There are evidence of that.

And how are they supposed to come back if travellers from any muslim country around Israel (Syria and so on) is forbidden to enter?

Who decided that the palestinians can not?

I thought that a large percentage or israeli citizens think that Jordan is the place for palestinians to go. Am I wrong?

Even though Arafat talks pretty, his school books talk about a single, arab palestine. His speeches are not about 67 borders but about Haifa and Jaffo.

All the right-wing political parties of Israel talk about never giving land to the palestinian state.

Did Sharon say that?

Oh yes, he did and proved his thoughts so many times in just a few years. Remember any massacre in refugees fields made by mr. Sharon?

The jewish population in arab countries declined.

Again, return law.

As for the south mediterranean coast - Israel is on the east mediterranean coast, thank you.

For south mediterranean coast I mean the coast south of Europe- going from Morocco to Turkey. All that zone was taken over by the arabs to the romans, they settled there and became a huge majority, while jews were just a small fraction on it.

I promise you that in 50 years they will be fighting for independance.

Well you just said that the UN says they can. But I really don't think that will happen, and by saying that you just proved your thoughts about muslims are not as they should be.

Read the journy diaries of Mark Twain IIRC. He describes Palestine as mostly a wasteland, except for the galillee and some places in Judea mountains.

So was every single zone in southern europe, as Greece, S. Italy and Bulgaria. Maybe you should have taken Bulgaria as well, it was poor and backward after all, and didn't exist as a state because it was into the Ottoman Empire as Palestine.

About Yugoslavia. Kosovars have no right of taking over Serbia, they already have a country, Albania. What yugoslavians were guilty of, was living in a communist country friend of Russia.

[Eli]

Damn, I accidently voted yes.

[Juggler]

Tempus! Give us victory! -Branwen

So that's what Branwen keeps saying!

[Adalbertus]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

Call me crazy but if tomorrow the UN says that I have to give up my country to a foreigner I wouldn't want that as well.

Well if Sicilians (sp?) want to form thier own state, what would you do?

The UN charter says that they can do that.
So do the 14 principles of Willson on which modern politics are based in one way or another.

This is a bad habit after 1939. Hitler started it and every idiot meant to imitate this. The overwhelming majority of wars after 1000 BC simply was about power, and very rarely about living space (as Hitler pretended).

Even still - wars got people displaced.

I don't see any french in england or any english in france.

I think you are referring to the 100 year's war. What happened was that the Normans established a principality within France around 1000 AC. In 1066 they conquered England, which thus became subject to the same rulers as the Normandy but never was part of France. In this process, no population was forcefully expelled from their homelands. (In the result, there are many sites all over England with very French names, such as Rivaulx Abbey). During the 100 year's war, the French king expelled the duke of the Normandy (who was at the same time King of England). It is easier to sell this as a war between England and France than a French civil war. That's all. Again, no expulsion of population. The population was relabelled from "English" to "French".

I don't see english subjects on American soil.

English subjects went to America out of free will or as prisoners. Fought for independence. Thus they were relabelled. Others went there (then mostly of their own free will) and became Americans. Again no expulsion by war.

I see french in canada (not french subjects though).

I see spaniards in america.

Same as English in America, only more unwilling and/or unwelcome to assimilate.

I see russia controlling areas with mongolians, ukranians, armenians, and dozens of other nationalities.

Normally remained in their original region (prior to Stalin).

A war for power doesn't result in displacement of people - you may find one or two exceptions, but it was definitely not the rule. After a war for power, the leading class of the beaten population was killed or imprisoned, and the mean folk became a servant class or continued their usual life under new rulers.

But your claim that most wars were wars of power is untrue.

It is true mostly for late classical age in Europe. But only there.

There's a whole world outside Europe!!

True also for the most classical ages of China, Japan, Inca (Aztecs might be different due to their religious needs for prisoners of war ...)

The idea one region = one people = one state is the most sick consequence of the 19th century nationalism (mostly spread by the French Revolution).

whether it is sick or not is a very subjective subjects.

The palestinains seeem to think otherwise.
So do the Taiwanese. So did many Yugoslavian nations. So do many sub-spanish nations. So did many north Irish.

Just because you don't believe in nations doesn't mean you should force your concept on everybody else.

I know they think so. And I think this is sick. Because it invariably results in expulsions, murders, etc. China is much less homogeneous than Yugoslavia (which was about as homogeneous as Germany), in terms of ethnicities. Chinese understand themselves as Chinese, Germans understand themselves as Germans, and Yugoslavians as Croatians, Serbs, etc. The problem is that "Nation" is merely a matter of definition.
I think it is much worse to drive people out of their region of birth (or which they otherwise feel as their home) than living together with people of different ethnicities. I guess you'd have a hard time to find a supporter of ethnic "defragmentation", who would volunteer to give up his home. That's one half why I think it's sick. The other half is that I doubt there are many people who can be sure of a "pure" ancestry over more than a few hundred years. A highly civilized culture tends to mix up ethnicities, and sometimes also not-so-highly civilized cultures (I think about Europe in 500 AC...).

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit


About Yugoslavia. Kosovars have no right of taking over Serbia, they already have a country, Albania. What yugoslavians were guilty of, was living in a communist country friend of Russia.

The Kosovars lived in Kosovo long before the Serbs moved south of the Hungarian plains. The languages of Albania and Kosovo are descended from Illyrian, the language spoken in that area in Homer's day. Before the Ottomans that area was exchanged back and forth between the Bulgars and the Serbs. After the Ottomans took the area the population that was Orthodox took Serbian as their language, while those who took up Islam kept their original language. I won't contest the possibility that some of the Kosovars are Albanians who moved out of Hoxna's regime, but the majority of Kosovars are descended from people who have lived there since antiquity.

[Datajack Franit]

The Kosovars lived in Kosovo long before the Serbs moved south of the Hungarian plains. The languages of Albania and Kosovo are descended from Illyrian, the language spoken in that area in Homer's day. Before the Ottomans that area was exchanged back and forth between the Bulgars and the Serbs. After the Ottomans took the area the population that was Orthodox took Serbian as their language, while those who took up Islam kept their original language. I won't contest the possibility that some of the Kosovars are Albanians who moved out of Hoxna's regime, but the majority of Kosovars are descended from people who have lived there since antiquity.

That's totally false. Slavs came in Serbia and Montenegro between 200 and 500 AD. The first report of muslims living in the area came from circa 1400-1450, when the Ottomans invaded the region. They were partially defeated, but still got a hold of the whole eastern europe. They gave the serbs, croatians and macedonians the right to keep their religion, even though being christian or orthodox closed them any door to the administrative life of the area. When the Ottoman Empire collapsed, the last muslim people were the people converted to islam, in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Albania mostly. And Kosovo definitely. But After the WW1 the whole area became Yugoslavia, and kosovars were still a minorance. So are they now, and the claimed ethnic cleansess was made by serbs, of course, but by kosovars as well.

[Juggler]

The Kosovars lived in Kosovo long before the Serbs moved south of the Hungarian plains. The languages of Albania and Kosovo are descended from Illyrian, the language spoken in that area in Homer's day. Before the Ottomans that area was exchanged back and forth between the Bulgars and the Serbs. After the Ottomans took the area the population that was Orthodox took Serbian as their language, while those who took up Islam kept their original language. I won't contest the possibility that some of the Kosovars are Albanians who moved out of Hoxna's regime, but the majority of Kosovars are descended from people who have lived there since antiquity.

Serbs moved to Serbia and kosovo from 550 to 600. Illyrian tribes in kosovo became a minority and were then assimilated among the serbs (same as in Serbia, Bosnia).
Serb exodus from Kosovo happened in 1379 after the defeat at Kosovo polje (and lasted several centuries), in 1690 (Great exodus) and in modern times.

[Datajack Franit]

So that's what Branwen keeps saying!

I thought I was the only one who played that game in this forum


She also said something like "For Tempus' shield!" every couple of minutes but usually I got tired of her and made Minsc turn her into squashed tomatoes

[Juggler]

Branwen is a goodie-goodie character so I don't really like her (I stick to that red mage and dark elves instead).

and there are plenty of BGate fans here (who mostly post in Other games section) but they have Shadows of Amn and i don't

[Datajack Franit]

Hey I started playing BG (the FIRST huh) just one month ago :PP BTW it should be pretty easy to find it in a shop?

[Juggler]

the thing is i cannot afford to waiste my money on games right now and I have to buy a new computer anyway.

And about BG - I've been playing it ever since it hit the shelves and i still keep experimenting with different characters. Right now I'm finishing Durlag's tower (from the expansion).

[Kepler]

This is a troll geography lesson. I am surprised nobody has brought up the Kurds yet. That is the only regularly-scheduled territorial squabble that is missing.

There was actually a movement to create the Jewish state in Chile. With the expat Nazis next door, that would have been interesting.

[Datajack Franit]

Talking about genocide... Armenia, anyone?

[Juggler]

you start

[Datajack Franit]

I think this thread went a bit off topic and that it will be closed soon