Should Israel Have Been in Europe Instead

[Ned]

Originally posted by red_jon


LOL. That one is pathetic even for a troll

0.3/10

A little self-denial.

The Euro's position on the ME is pathetic.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by red_jon


Because some peoples, most notably the Danish, defended the Jews, risking their own lives. When the Nazis occupied Denmark, non-Jews wore the star of david too, to show solidarity.

Yet many Danes served in the Waffen SS, a voluntary organization. The Germans accomodated their like-minded Scandinavian brethern by giving them their very own SS division!

[Franit]

IMHO, The Euro's were collectively responsible for the Holocost. They all cooperated with Hitler. They OWE Israel. It is immoral that they now support the terrorist Arafat who is again trying to repeat the Holocost. Their excuses for their continuing anti-Semitism are lame at best.

They owe the jewish people, NOT Israel. Israel didn't even exist as a country since the United Nations give the boot to millions of palestinians.

[Ned]

Franit, making distinctions between Jews and Israel is also part of the Europe's problem.

[Chris 62]

People are starting to take DaShi's goofy troll thread seriously, i must chastize him elsewhere for this....

[Datajack Franit]

(damn I forgot to delete my old account )

btw Ned, many jews in the world (and not only them) totally disagree with Israel's politics of dealing with palestinian refugees. I give my support to the jews survivors of WW2, but no way I'm going to say that they're allowed to do the same treatment they received in Germany to someone else. Otherwise it's just an endless spiral of death.

[Rogan Josh]

I agree. They should have been put somewhere in the west, rather than forcing out the arabs. Lets see, where is the least densely populated part of the west....?

Ah, the US! They could have been given some underpopulated state like Mississippi which no-one would have missed.....

That would have been a much more sensible solution, and would have been supported by the US public since they like Jews so much.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
They could have been given some underpopulated state like Mississippi which no-one would have missed.....

You did that just to annoy me, didn't you?

Franit: Israel didn't even exist as a country since the United Nations give the boot to millions of palestinians.

The UN gave the Palestinians thier own state in the original partition plan.

[Sirotnikov]

as a country since the United Nations give the boot to millions of palestinians.

bah, what nonsense is this??

a) some 650,000 (numbers vary) arabs were displaced during 1947-1949
b) some 150,000 remained in 1949 Israel.
c) meaning that before there were roughly 800,000 palestinians in what was meant to be Israel.

800,000 is not millions. not even one million.

the UN had nothing to do to their displacement. If you've seen wars, you know that people get displaced.

after the war, some 680,000 Jews were kicked out or left after persecution from Arab countries.
Did you ever care about that?

UN suggested a peaceful division between arabs and jews according to where jews and arabs lived.

that way there would have been a palestinian and a jewish nation.

arabs didn't want that and declared war. jews wanted that (and their will for self definition is protected by the UN charter and their decision about the establishment of Israel) and fought back.

welcome to the world of ME history debating.

but no way I'm going to say that they're allowed to do the same treatment they received in Germany to someone else

please read my next post:

[Sirotnikov]

What would've Jose Saramago written if he had visited Aushwitz in 1944?

Yehoshua Sobol

In the spring of 1944, when Germany was protecting itself from the cruel terror campaign managed against it by the world Jewry, the third Reich allowed a group of famous writers to visit Treblinka, Aushwitz and Sobibor to see the life conditions in those camps. Among the invited was Jose Saramago, and he described what he saw in this document.

"Already on the way to Aushwitz, the capitol of the future Jewish state, you can feel that life here are not like the life in the capitols of Europe. Roadblocks of the German army on the roads leading to Aushwitz cause huge traffic jams in the entrance and the exit from the camp. Jews who want to leave Aushwitz for their work in Krakow are forced to wait for long hours in the monstrous traffic jams caused by the soldiers of the German occupation who check every car that leaves the camp and search carefuly for the IDs of every Jew who wants to leave for work or to bring food for his family. Not once I saw the soldiers humiliate the Jews and even abuse them. I saw with my own eyes a soldier throwing the ID of a Jewish reporter on the floor and asking him to pick it up. With my own eyes I saw a young German soldier aiming and firing rubber bullets on a group of Jewish kids who were only throwing stones and Molotovs on him."

"But this is nothing compared to the reaction of the Germans to the bombing of a train filled with gas baloons that was about to enter Aushwitz to supply gas to the residents of the camp. Immediately after the teract, in which 9 soldiers were killed I saw German soldiers, armed to the teeth, passing from house to house scaring innocent families. With my own eyes I saw them breaking a wall and entering stright into the living room of a scared Jewish family in the middle of their dinner. The little children started crying and the parents had to calm them down while the German soldiers opened desks and searched for bombs. When the soldiers left the small apartment of the shocked family, they left a horrible mess after them."

"The rude behavior of the soldiers is unthinkable. Some of the Nazi soldiers who invaded the houses of the Jews in Aushwitz arranged the family in one room while the soldiers were lying in their sweaty uniforms on the beds of the Jews without taking off their boots. Such brutal behavior enraged the fighters in the Jewish organizations who opened fire on the German soldiers. The Germans retaliated with tank fire and killed 17 Jewish fighters and five more Jewish civilians who didnt participate in the fighting and were accidently in the middle of the fighting between the Jewish fighters protecting Aushwitz and the German troops."

"When the Germans couldnt accomplish their goal and bring the Jewish organizations to a cease fire the German occupation authorities decided, as ordered by the Fuhrer, to humiliate the Jewish leader of Aushwitz. Tanks surrounded his compound, and he was not allowed to go to Birkenau to a conference of the leaders of the Jewish camps all over Europe. This attempt achieved the opposite result, and the support for the Jewish leader increased. In the moment the world discovered about his house arrest, Jewish and non-Jewish leaders from around the world started flowing to Aushwitz to support the humiliated Jewish leader."

"Eventually, because of the protests around the world, the Germans had to withdraw their forces from Aushwitz and the feeling among the Jews was a feeling of victory. When the Germans tanks were retreating from the camp Jewish children were running after them, destroying the antennas and the third reich flags on the tanks and burning them infront of the German armors. 'look on them! you can really see the feeling of defeat in the their eyes!' called a Jewish boy while throwing molotov bottle on the tank."

"But behind the momentary euforia of the Jews, Aushwitz stays Aushwitz. The suffering of the population is unbelievable. The retreating German soldiers fired on the warm water boilers on the roofs of the Aushwitz homes and the residents of the camp were forced to shower in the cold water of spring 1944. Some soldiers broke the windows of Jewish luxury stores, and even plundered siggaretes and beer cans.
A tank crew turned on a speaker playing the German anthem, hurting the feeling of the Aushwitz Jews."

"The citizens of Aushwitz told about two cases when German roadblock soldiers prevented Jewish pregnant women from going to the hospital in Krakow and cause the death of two babies. An old Jew who suffered a severe teeth pains was forced to walk on foot from Aushwitz to Birkenau to get a treatment from a local dentist specializing in gold teeth".

"From the reports of the humanitarian organizations working in the different camps, in the last 15 months, from January 1943 to this spring of 1944 at least 1200 Jews died in Birkenau, Aushwitz, Sobibor and Treblinka, while the German casualties are only 400, in clashes with Jewish freedom fighters. A simple math shows that in all these camps, in average, 3 Jews were killed every day! As a humanist writer and the Nobel prize laureat I can say this : The horror of Aushwitz, like i've seen with my own eyes, can only be compared to what Jews will be doing in 60 years to Palestinians in Rammalah."

[Sirotnikov]

I hope this shows you why any comparison between the Holocaust and the Intifada is idiotic.

[DerSchwarzfalke]

For one, Jews never said "Next Year in Brussels" at their Passover meals. They, for the most part, as a people have always had a long and intimate attachment to Jerusalem and the eretz around it, where their culture and religion was formed, where they as a people molded from twelve tribes into one nation. They did not do this in Belgium; they did not do this in Uganda; they did this in Judea, from which they were expelled and massacred -- and I promise you, more brutally and in far larger numbers.

And a European Jewish state would not work terribly well either considering the large number of sephardim whose modern culture was formed in North Africa and the Middle East, not in Europe. Israel itself is a crossroads between the two continents, and therefore a kind of meeting place between the two groups of Jews long-seperated.

And either way, let's consider the Holy Land. Aside from brief periods of Crusader states, which were not really united, the only true, independent nation to ever live on that whole land was a Jewish one. They have a right to the land that has always been theirs, in writings, in thoughts, in prayers, and now, in reality.

[C0ckney]

I can't believe people are taking this troll seriously :/

[Datajack Franit]

Hey this topic is getting interesting

First of all I just want to say that I'm not antisemitic, I just want to say that I think without being labeled as a racist and so on (as a foreigner living in Italy I can tell what's racism like, and I want no part in it)

Capice? Now let's see..

the UN had nothing to do to their displacement. If you've seen wars, you know that people get displaced.

Maybe this is the reason why it was called the arab-israel war? BTW you are using the word "displaced" as you were talking about cattle instead of people

after the war, some 680,000 Jews were kicked out or left after persecution from Arab countries.

That's not completely true. If you're referring to the WW2 it's a big fat lie. Arabs had no reason to kick out jews since the creation of the state of Israel.

If you're instead referring to the arab-israeli war then you should remember what's the Return Law.
The " Return Law" was issued after the declaration of independence of Israel, and allows every jew in the world to have the israeli citizenship. You call this persecution?

More soon

[Datajack Franit]

arabs didn't want that and declared war. jews wanted that (and their will for self definition is protected by the UN charter and their decision about the establishment of Israel) and fought back.

Call me crazy but if tomorrow the UN says that I have to give up my country to a foreigner I wouldn't want that as well.

Using this same philosophy (we were here 2000 years ago so it's our home) then every single european nation should give up its territory to the discendants of the romans. Or I could kick you out of you own home and sending you live in the restroom if I could prove I was living there before you. That's definitely not right.

And, fought back means that you kick an invader out of your country. Now, where's the palestinian country? Nobody knows. And while they were there, they also decided to invade some more countries and take more land than it had been promised by the UN (referring to the period since 1967), including Syria, Egypt and Jordan.

I'll say it again, the holocaust was a tragedy for the whole human race. But look at what the germans did and say if there are common things in the way israelis are treating the palestinians since the creation of Israel state.

Next step? The UN creating a palestinian state in Belgium?