Should Israel Have Been in Europe Instead

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit



That's totally false. Slavs came in Serbia and Montenegro between 200 and 500 AD. The first report of muslims living in the area came from circa 1400-1450, when the Ottomans invaded the region. They were partially defeated, but still got a hold of the whole eastern europe. They gave the serbs, croatians and macedonians the right to keep their religion, even though being christian or orthodox closed them any door to the administrative life of the area. When the Ottoman Empire collapsed, the last muslim people were the people converted to islam, in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Albania mostly. And Kosovo definitely. But After the WW1 the whole area became Yugoslavia, and kosovars were still a minorance. So are they now, and the claimed ethnic cleansess was made by serbs, of course, but by kosovars as well.

In 200 AD the areas now known as Kosovo, Macedonia, Albania, Montenegro, Bosnia, Serbia and Croatia were all still part of the Roman empire! Like Juggler said, the Serbs didn't move over the mountains into Serbia until the 6th or 7th centuries AD. As I pointed out the language of the Kosovars and Albanians was spoken in that area before the Romans conquered it and more than a millenium before the Serbs arrived. You can't say that the Illyrian ancestors of the Serbs became a minority. Conquerors have a nasty habit of forcing their victims to fit into their society. Take England for example. Gene tudies have shown that the English aren't germanic, they're probably basically celts who were forced to speak a germanic language. The same is probably true in Yugoslavia.

Why is it that the muslims of Albania and Kosovo speak a language descended from ancient Illyrian, but the Christians speak Serbian. Most likely the priests in the area spoke Serbian and the congregations picked the language up. When the muslims took control of the area they must have been more tolerant of the native language. One thing is certain is that the muslims did not bring these languages into the area. Neither Albanian or Kosovar are related to Turkish or Arabic. They're related to Illyrian the original language of the area.

[Datajack Franit]

As I pointed out the language of the Kosovars and Albanians was spoken in that area before the Romans conquered it and more than a millenium before the Serbs arrived. You can't say that the Illyrian ancestors of the Serbs became a minority

No way. The first muslim settlers came around 1400 AD, pushed by the ottomans. Before that date there wasn't a single muslim in serbia, nor in croatia, ect...
And btw Illiria (Dalmatia Illiriacum) was the ROMAN name of the WHOLE nowadays ex-Yugoslavian state. Kosovo in the meantimes became part of the bulgar empire, then it vanished and the whole area going from to Romania to Serbia became part of the Ottoman Empire.

(I'm learning more history in this site than at my school- an italian school, huh )

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit



No way. The first muslim settlers came around 1400 AD, pushed by the ottomans. Before that date there wasn't a single muslim in serbia, nor in croatia, ect...
And btw Illiria (Dalmatia Illiriacum) was the ROMAN name of the WHOLE nowadays ex-Yugoslavian state. Kosovo in the meantimes became part of the bulgar empire, then it vanished and the whole area going from to Romania to Serbia became part of the Ottoman Empire.

(I'm learning more history in this site than at my school- an italian school, huh )

Did you understand anything in my previous posts? The language of Kosovo and Albania is related to the indigenous language of the area. Some modern scholars call the old language Illyrian because the area was given the name Illyria in pre-Roman times. I don't know what the pre-Roman inhabitants called themselves and I don't have to. It is an established fact: the Albanian and Kosovar languages are the modern descendants of the language spoken by the indigenous peoples of that area in pre-roman days. If you have trouble understanding this why don't you get off your schoolboy behind and research the topic. I'm not going to do it for you as I am way long ago out of school and I don't have to do that sort of thing any more.

I don't know what to make of your remark about muslim settlers not arriving in the are until after 1400. I thought I made it perfectly clear that the Kosovars and Albanians were most likely indigneous peoples of the area who converted to Islam at some point during the days of the Ottoman empire. Do you understand me now?

Kosovo and Macedonia were passed back and forth between the Serbs and Bulgars from 900 AD to 1400 AD.

[Datajack Franit]

It is an established fact: the Albanian and Kosovar languages are the modern descendants of the language spoken by the indigenous peoples of that area in pre-roman days

That's a point for you. Albanian language came from the pre-roman kingdom.

If you have trouble understanding this why don't you get off your schoolboy behind and research the topic. I'm not going to do it for you as I am way long ago out of school and I don't have to do that sort of thing any more.

If you care to try being not so arrogant and mean, I'd tell you that I already did it even before getting into the thread, as I'm not the punk 13 yo boy you think I am. About the language and all of that;

Native albanian language was spoken in the whole region until it had been conquered by the romans. But romans were known for letting the conquered tribes keep their own traditions as long as they sworn loyalty to Rome and learn latin.

Within ages the old language wasn't spoken anymore in the balkans, except from Macedonia and Albania. So serbia, croatia and slovenia gave back the latin and made up their own languages based on the slavic-root.
(slave? slavian? whatever)

While Kosovo and Albania started to develop the modern albanian language.
Then the Ottomans came and the southern region, turned muslim (this around 1350). But still since the 10th century kosovo was joined with serbia, and formed the (wonder what?) serbian kindgom. This means that Kosovo was a serbian province from the fall of rome to that date. So it's about 700 years, maybe even more?

In the middle of 1800 Greece and every east european country - included yugoslavia- had gotten indipendent, and the Ottomans were pushed back to Turkey. Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia were part of the austrian-hungaric kingdom, while Serbia+Kosovo formed serbian state, and indipendent as well were Montenegro and Albania. After WW1 Yugoslavia was created mixing up all these countries as they were of slav-language and orthodox. The muslim Albania was not included.

Hmm.. what else? As you can read Kosovo had always been part of serbia, this gives them no reason to seek indipendence because they shared the same land for centuries and noone kicked them away ever.

Now let's wait Sirotnikov to strike again so I'll keep myself busy for another couple of days

[Adalbertus]

Gene tudies have shown that the English aren't germanic, they're probably basically celts who were forced to speak a germanic language. The same is probably true in Yugoslavia.

Any link? I cannot imagine that it is so simple. There were Germanic groups who set over to England and conquered a (probably) Celtic population with some Romans mixed in. I don't know the exact numbers, but the Angles (sp?) who were located in a region between Schleswig-Holstein and Denmark aren't found there any more so I'd guess it is a major part of the population who went over to England. So there should be a mixture of Celtic and Germanic genes.
The language is also a point. For, say an army of 1000 men it is not too simple to enforce the use of a different language on a population of a few million, and if only for the lack of teachers. (Again England as an example: After the Normannic conquest in 1066, English was the peasant's language and French used by the nobility. The Normans had enough men to enforce their rule but not enough to enforce their language). In other words: A conquering group who can enforce their language also should be visible in the gene pool.
(I'm a bit sceptic about those gene studies because almost any population in Europe got mixed up several times. Where to find pure Germanic genes? Certainly not in Germany: Celtic, Roman, and Slavic blood mixed in. Perhaps in Norway? Is Ireland sufficiently purely Celtic to get good samples from there?)

[Datajack Franit]

Well for what I've seen since, the germans were a tribe pushed south by the scandinavian populations. They conquered the whole actual german area (from the slaves again) and started to mix with the people of britain around 400 AD. A couple of months ago I read an article on bbc world saying that the genetic roots of the british population are a mix of roman-latins, germanics, slaves from every corner of the empire and celts.

So actually the english verbs are very very similar to the french ones, and many english words are spelled quite the same as german ones because of these guys messing around in england, then they eventually widthdrew or got absorbed.

[Adalbertus]

Well for what I've seen since, the germans were a tribe pushed south by the scandinavian populations. They conquered the whole actual german area (from the slaves again)

From what I remember from my history lessons and other readings, Germanic tribes came from the east, and spread to the north and west, before the Slavs. Germanic tribes (Cimbri et Teutoni) terrorized the Romans already 105 BC. The Slavs entered the region of Poland and eastern Germany (roughly the area of the former GDR) around 500-800 AC, which was previously more or less deserted (some Germanic tribes, e. g. Goths, wandered through this area on their way south a few hundered years ago. From 1000 onwards, German population settled eastward and mixed with the slavs/founded new settlements (they brought better agricultural techniques from the west, so there was place for more people).

I always thought Scandinavians (Normans/Vikings, Danes, Swedes, and Norwegians, but not the Laps and Finns) as being of Germanic origin. Their languages definitely are.

Btw. The Germans never were "a tribe", at least not in historical times. They always were a bunch of tribes with lots of difficulties to cooperate (nothing changed during the last 2000 years).

So actually the english verbs are very very similar to the french ones, and many english words are spelled quite the same as german ones because of these guys messing around in england, then they eventually widthdrew or got absorbed.

I think the influence of French words on English (and rooting back to Latin) mainly stems from the Normannic conquest. The French sounding words are mostly the "upper class" words - "pig" the animal and "pork" the meat, "cow/ox/bull" the animal and beef the meat, for example.

[Datajack Franit]

From what I remember from my history lessons and other readings, Germanic tribes came from the east, and spread to the north and west, before the Slavs. Germanic tribes (Cimbri et Teutoni) terrorized the Romans already 105 BC. The Slavs entered the region of Poland and eastern Germany (roughly the area of the former GDR) around 500-800 AC, which was previously more or less deserted (some Germanic tribes, e. g. Goths, wandered through this area on their way south a few hundered years ago.

That's true, but germanic tribes came also from the north around 3000 BC and settled in area going from the actual Schleswig-Holstein (I don't speak german so don't care about mistakes ) and the polish coast. Then Cimbri and Teutoni mixed up with the foreigner barbaric tribes (vikings, marcomanni, quadi, saxons) and the roman definion of "german" was the whole people inhabitating the east of the Rhine. Every german town's tribe (Sippen) formed the people (Voelk).
They firstly seized the Rhine river (Koeln, Mainz, Bonn and Strasbourg) then went east and took over the slaves towns build around 400 AD?(not sure), so they had Berlin, Potsdam, Cottbus and Leipzig.

Well, all the actual inhabitants of north-europe are descendants of the german tribes, as you said. Finns were related to mongols?

About the languages.. just think at how they say "fish". It's quite the same in every corner of northern europe, fisk, fisch, fiske.

[Adalbertus]

... around 3000 BC ...

Is this an excess 0 or do you really have information about Germanic tribes in that time??

Then Cimbri and Teutoni mixed up with the foreigner barbaric tribes

Well, it's not that easy. Very often, those tribes got beaten separately... I think, even in the time of Caesar, the Cimbri and Teutoni played a minor role. The Marcomanni had their best time between 0 and 100 AC (IIRC), and around 500 BC the most important Germanic tribes still in the region were the Franks, Alemans, Burgunds, and Saxons who all pursued their own business, until beaten by the Franks. More to the south there were still the Langobards, Vandals (in North Africa at that time) and Goths. It was the conquests of the Franks who more or less unified the tribes to what now is Germany (or France), and left out the tribes (such as the Danes) more to the north. To only understand the major movements of the tribes - who all acted as independent political entities - is a huge task. (And the Caesars Belgians probably also were Germanic - it didn't fit into his brain that it is mountains and not rivers that divide populations)

I doubt that Finns are descentants of the Mongols, but in this forum, there certainly will be some or another Finn who explains everything

[Sava]

Israel should be right where it is. In fact, it should expand and kick out the Muslims in that entire region.

[Dry]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
I hope this shows you why any comparison between the Holocaust and the Intifada is idiotic.

Oh, yes, Thanks for having enlighten us all.
You really convinced me that from now on, as long as Israel has not killed 5,999,999 pals, I - and all europeans - will agree to everything that all Israelis - including settlers - do.
And even if they kill those 5,999,999 Pals, as long as it is in co-lateral damage ("Ooops, sorry guys, I was aiming the building there, sorry") and not killed by gas or whatever horrible means (flamethrower? should that be OK? Or will it still be anti-semitism?), you will have our 100% agreement on it.

From me at least, you have free hands, Go on.

You, and all others of course. From now on, any people who kill less than 5,999,999 human beings will have my 100% support.

In other words, from now on, I allow myself to criticise only... Germany.

But, please keep the records of the deads, humiliated, raped... - I fully 100% trust your stats - so I know when I will be allowed to think by myself again.

I just have a last question. If, let's say the Chinese beats the Germans by killing... 8 million people - according to your stat - will that forbid all Asians to criticise any other country until someone else beat that score?

[Datajack Franit]

Is this an excess 0 or do you really have information about Germanic tribes in that time??

That happens when you're reading history books at 4am

3000 BC is the right date, but referred to the indo-european settlers. They had split in several roots and colonized the scarcely populated areas of the north.

Everything else you said was totally right. I couldn't have said it better. About finns.. this thread started with israel, then arabs, then albanians, now the germans.. let's see what happens next

Ah you're very clever for a french though

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Adalbertus

Any link? I cannot imagine that it is so simple. There were Germanic groups who set over to England and conquered a (probably) Celtic population with some Romans mixed in. I don't know the exact numbers, but the Angles (sp?) who were located in a region between Schleswig-Holstein and Denmark aren't found there any more so I'd guess it is a major part of the population who went over to England. So there should be a mixture of Celtic and Germanic genes.
The language is also a point. For, say an army of 1000 men it is not too simple to enforce the use of a different language on a population of a few million, and if only for the lack of teachers. (Again England as an example: After the Normannic conquest in 1066, English was the peasant's language and French used by the nobility. The Normans had enough men to enforce their rule but not enough to enforce their language). In other words: A conquering group who can enforce their language also should be visible in the gene pool.
(I'm a bit sceptic about those gene studies because almost any population in Europe got mixed up several times. Where to find pure Germanic genes? Certainly not in Germany: Celtic, Roman, and Slavic blood mixed in. Perhaps in Norway? Is Ireland sufficiently purely Celtic to get good samples from there?)

I have no link for you. The study I'm referring to used a gene marker that was found to be present in about 18% of northern Dutch, coastal Germany and southern Denmark, the areas from which the Angles and Saxons came. The gene was found to be present in about 5 % of French and Spanish, populations which presumably had relativly little German influence. The study found the gene marker present in a little over 7 % of the population in England. This would indicate that there had of course been some interbreeding of the native celtic population with Germans, but that the Germans were a small minority.

[Adalbertus]

Shhht! I'm not French. I was talking about the chaotic bunch of villains that were my ancestors (and of some French, also).

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit
It wasn't YOU who saved humanity. It was all those one who fought during the war, the american, european and soviet soldiers.

He's talking about the movie.

As for Albania, the Albanians are not decended from Muslim settlers but converted to Islam after the Ottomans absorbed their kingdom's (all three of them).

Dr s, Since the Albania people were Orthodox before the conquest, I don't find your explanation compelling. While often conquests are merely changes of ruling groups, in some cases there are population changes. Especially in the Balkans, where groups had a tendency in ages past to committ wholesale massacres.