Should Israel Have Been in Europe Instead

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit



That's a point for you. Albanian language came from the pre-roman kingdom.




If you care to try being not so arrogant and mean, I'd tell you that I already did it even before getting into the thread, as I'm not the punk 13 yo boy you think I am. About the language and all of that;

Native albanian language was spoken in the whole region until it had been conquered by the romans. But romans were known for letting the conquered tribes keep their own traditions as long as they sworn loyalty to Rome and learn latin.

Within ages the old language wasn't spoken anymore in the balkans, except from Macedonia and Albania. So serbia, croatia and slovenia gave back the latin and made up their own languages based on the slavic-root.
(slave? slavian? whatever)

While Kosovo and Albania started to develop the modern albanian language.
Then the Ottomans came and the southern region, turned muslim (this around 1350). But still since the 10th century kosovo was joined with serbia, and formed the (wonder what?) serbian kindgom. This means that Kosovo was a serbian province from the fall of rome to that date. So it's about 700 years, maybe even more?

In the middle of 1800 Greece and every east european country - included yugoslavia- had gotten indipendent, and the Ottomans were pushed back to Turkey. Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia were part of the austrian-hungaric kingdom, while Serbia+Kosovo formed serbian state, and indipendent as well were Montenegro and Albania. After WW1 Yugoslavia was created mixing up all these countries as they were of slav-language and orthodox. The muslim Albania was not included.

Hmm.. what else? As you can read Kosovo had always been part of serbia, this gives them no reason to seek indipendence because they shared the same land for centuries and noone kicked them away ever.

Now let's wait Sirotnikov to strike again so I'll keep myself busy for another couple of days

Oh well, on and on we go. First I'd like to point out that the area was still part of the Byzantine empire through the reign of Justinian, so it could not have been in Serbian hands until after the &th century. Second I'd like to point out that the Bulgarians became dominant in the Balkans by 1000 AD and that they held kosovo and macedonia atleast up to the 13th century. Finally I'd like to point out the incontestable fact that during the 20th century the majority of the inhabitants of Kosovo spoke Kosovar and were and are Muslims. Milosevic's government sought first to deprive them of their civil rights and then finally to deprive them of their lives. Serbian apologists often make the ludicrous arguement that the Kosovars were largely immigrants and had no right to the live there. I've sought to establish that the people of Kosovo in fact pre-dated the Serbs!

[Bereta_Eder]

Heretic!

[Adalbertus]

Give Kosovo back to the Goths!

[Bereta_Eder]

Convert them to the teachings of the Lord.

[Bereta_Eder]

GAH! dirty little trick there by angelfire...!

[Datajack Franit]

Finally I'd like to point out the incontestable fact that during the 20th century the majority of the inhabitants of Kosovo spoke Kosovar and were and are Muslims. Milosevic's government sought first to deprive them of their civil rights and then finally to deprive them of their lives.

Yeah, they were so harmless that since the 60's they formed several terrorist organizations (kla above all), which targeted funny stuff as churches, crowded markets, bridges and serbian military compounds. Of course when we talk about people we can list kidnap, rape of women from 14 to 60 yo including nuns; then there's also weapons, prostitutes, human organs and drug trade, cooperation with terrorist organizations in Cecenia and much more.

So what if they had their own language? We got greek speaking villages in south Italy and german speaking in the north.

[Datajack Franit]

Give Kosovo back to the Goths!

LOL sure, and as there are italian speaking persons in Greece because of Mussolini occupation in WW2 I want Rhodos back now!




Hey isn't Paiktis that greek cottage cheese?

[Adalbertus]

LOL sure, and as there are italian speaking persons in Greece because of Mussolini occupation in WW2 I want Rhodos back now!

No, but the language of Corse is essentially an Italian dialect, so you can demand it back from France. (And that Napoleon's probably is from Naples, as the name suggests. Not that I had any sympathy for him)

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit



Yeah, they were so harmless that since the 60's they formed several terrorist organizations (kla above all), which targeted funny stuff as churches, crowded markets, bridges and serbian military compounds. Of course when we talk about people we can list kidnap, rape of women from 14 to 60 yo including nuns; then there's also weapons, prostitutes, human organs and drug trade, cooperation with terrorist organizations in Cecenia and much more.

So what if they had their own language? We got greek speaking villages in south Italy and german speaking in the north.

I find it really very difficult to believe that significant non-govermental terrorism existed during Tito's regime. That would be about as believeable as Hitler's claim that Polish terrorists blew up German radio stations and border posts in August 1939 or Japanese claims that Chinese terrorists attacked Japanese posts on the Marco Polo bridge in 1931. Communist dictatorships are legendary for their ability to crush dissident movements. Milosevic was fond of citing an incident that occurred in Kosovo in the 1970s. Appparently some disgruntled Kosovars threw some stones at some Communist officials. He never presented evidence that the incident was organized or that anone had been seriously hurt. If such an incident can be accepted as a legitimate reason to unleash a campaign of genocide, then let me tell you, unionized laborers the world over are going to be exterminated.

[Dis]

I think the obvious solution is Nevada. It's near Utah which is supposed to be holy. And the federal goverment has no problems declaring what can be sent to Nevada without our consent. And its desert like the middle east.

[Sirotnikov]

First of all I noticed you quote Baldur's Gate so you ain't all bad

Originally posted by Datajack Franit
And how are they supposed to come back if travellers from any muslim country around Israel (Syria and so on) is forbidden to enter?

Why should they come back?

We made special arrangements for jews who fled arab countries. Let the arab countries make special arrangements for palestinians.

And as for those who were kicked out, it was usually because it was population which was hostile towards us and helped the other armies.

On what basis we should welcome back people which were hostile to us?

I don't recall the US ever welcoming back communists which they expelled.

I thought that a large percentage or israeli citizens think that Jordan is the place for palestinians to go. Am I wrong?

You are right.

But even most of them realize that this idea can't be formed into reality.

In every single poll some 60-80% of israelis think that the endgame will be two states based loosley on the 67 borders.

All the right-wing political parties of Israel talk about never giving land to the palestinian state.

Politics is about talk.
Benjamin Nethanyahu, probably the most popular right candidate used to say that under no circumstances will he agree to give away the Golan Heights.

Yet it was disclosed that in secret negociations with Syria, he offered some 90% back.

Take the likkud party.
It's center officially voted that they don't accept the idea of a Palestinian state west of the Jordan river. This means, the Likkud party officially doesn't agree to offer it.

Yet in a poll asking whether you think a Palestinian state will be ultimately created there, no matter whether you like it, 80%+ said YES. And this is the Likkud party.

Oh yes, he did and proved his thoughts so many times in just a few years. Remember any massacre in refugees fields made by mr. Sharon?

1) I have yet to see a quote where Sharon denies Palestinians a country on the west bank and Gaza.

2) According to his bio on the Knesset site, In 1974 he wrote an article calling for peace talks with the Palestians based on Land for Peace.

3) I fail to remember Mr. Sharon being among the soldiers or generals comitting the massacare. Infact, I particularly recall it were the Christian Phalanges.

Sharon made a wrong choise and was removed from his ministerial office for good.

Again, return law.

That's nonsense.

Just because Israel is willing to give refuge and citizenship to Jews, doesn't mean that the Arab countries should force their Jewish citizens to flee to Israel.

For south mediterranean coast I mean the coast south of Europe- going from Morocco to Turkey. All that zone was taken over by the arabs to the romans, they settled there and became a huge majority, while jews were just a small fraction on it.

Nice that you're not Euro-centric

Well, if you look at all of Europe, Italy is a small fraction, and shouldn't really have it's own country

But if you look at the areas populated by Italians, they are a majority, and in those areas they should have their own country.

Similarly, IIRC 3 different comission during the 20s 30s and 40s of the 20th century, said that the Jewish people should have thier own country in Jewishly populated areas of Palestine.

Well you just said that the UN says they can. But I really don't think that will happen, and by saying that you just proved your thoughts about muslims are not as they should be.

Huh?
What?

Who is to say what my thoughts should be?

I'm simply pointing at a pattern of immigration and then self-definition that is prevalent in the world.

If you think it's so anti-muslim look at the Europeans.

They immigrated to Australia, and set up their own country.

They immigrated to America, and set up thier own countries.

There's no law in the world saying I should have a nice opinion about everyone.

So was every single zone in southern europe, as Greece, S. Italy and Bulgaria. Maybe you should have taken Bulgaria as well, it was poor and backward after all, and didn't exist as a state because it was into the Ottoman Empire as Palestine.

First, Greece and S.Italy were more populated that western Palestine.

Second, Western Palestine (aka Israel) is the historical homeland of the Jewish (Hebraic) people.

About Yugoslavia. Kosovars have no right of taking over Serbia, they already have a country, Albania. What yugoslavians were guilty of, was living in a communist country friend of Russia.

Huh????

How exactly yugoslavians were guitly of being under influence and cultural occupation of one of the world's hegemonies?

[Dis]

P.S. you may not like this. But within 100 years I expect Israel to go into the hands of the Palestinians.

[Datajack Franit]

No, but the language of Corse is essentially an Italian dialect, so you can demand it back from France. (And that Napoleon's probably is from Naples, as the name suggests. Not that I had any sympathy for him)

Maybe they should just become an ally of the US and claim ethnic cleaness by the evil french


About Dr. Strangelove... I bought several books about the subject, and got a subsctiption to Newsweek, if I could find the articles I'd post them asap. Btw I have no reason to lie about that, believe it, KLA isnt' the bunch of cool guys you may think. Remember what they did to that group of macedonian soldiers just a couple of years ago?

[Datajack Franit]

First of all I noticed you quote Baldur's Gate so you ain't all bad

I'm glad you respect me because I like Baldur's Gate


Hmm this thread is killing me I need to sleep!

Well but they are a political party- it's nice to hear that I'm not the only one thinking that palestinians should have their own state, it's just that the more you wait to do so, the more you allow fundamentalists to poison the minds of people with sick thoughts. But using violence and denying history isn't helping anyone.
In Europe most of the people believe Sharon to be a slaughterer. Now either the europeans or the israelis are wrong.

Well, if you look at all of Europe, Italy is a small fraction, and shouldn't really have it's own country

I don't think that 58 millions of italians could live just in S. Marino

About Yugoslavia. The yugoslavians were guilty of being the best friends of russians, and you know what the UN did to every single communist country in the world. I'm not saying that communism is a good thing (N. Korea above all) but they were'nt doing anything wrong, and now they are free from the evil cossacks and free to live in sewers, just as anyone wants. Wonder what will be of China..

[Ned]

Israel, in a sense, is like Liberia. Freed American slaves founded Liberia in the 1800s. The official language is English and Protestant Christianity is a religion practiced by many.

Only a small minority of the population are Americans.
A significant portion of the population is Muslim.

Correct me, if I am wrong, but I don't seem any Europeans demanding that the descendants of the American slaves go back to where they came from, America, where they were "persecuted." I don't seen anyone saying that movement of slaves to Liberia was a form of racism. I don't see anyone suggesting that the Americans were aggressive colonizers that the stole the land from the native Africans.

Why?