Should Israel Have Been in Europe Instead

[kolpo]

First want I to point out that there where before the US involevement in WWII also American groups who supported Hitler and even nazism. Some of them waved nazi flags and wore nazi costums, those would be happy to coolaborate but Germany was just to far away.

Groups like that still exists withing the US, in the past in the pre-Reagan time, had the right wing of the republicans even some simpathies with antisemitisme.

The US waited also longer to fight Hitler then most European nations(off course where some forced(being attacked) in the war, that I agree with).


Am talking about non axis part of europe here(so all nations except italy and germany).

A part of the euopean population, a minority did indeed coolaborate with the nazis. Just like there was a part that fighted against them and helped jews.

Neither europe nor the US have moral high grounds in this issues.

But to say that every inhabitant of europe(=meaning of the word europeans) is responsible for the holocaust is nonsense. Just like the idea that we are anti semestic, the majority isn't anti semectic, the biggest part of the population just doesn't care, so all you see is the small group(of mostly muslim imigrants) who are anti-semestic.

Oh and mine point about the middle east:
Can terrorism againsts civilians under any circomstance be justified? no!
Can killing an inocent civilian who is by accident near a terrorist under any circomstance be justified? no!

[Adalbertus]

the UN had nothing to do to their displacement. If you've seen wars, you know that people get displaced.

This is a bad habit after 1939. Hitler started it and every idiot meant to imitate this. The overwhelming majority of wars after 1000 BC simply was about power, and very rarely about living space (as Hitler pretended). A war for power doesn't result in displacement of people - you may find one or two exceptions, but it was definitely not the rule. After a war for power, the leading class of the beaten population was killed or imprisoned, and the mean folk became a servant class or continued their usual life under new rulers.
The idea one region = one people = one state is the most sick consequence of the 19th century nationalism (mostly spread by the French Revolution).

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit


Call me crazy but if tomorrow the UN says that I have to give up my country to a foreigner I wouldn't want that as well.

It's this kind of unilateralism that is keeping the UN from being an effective body of peace.

[Sirotnikov]

Maybe this is the reason why it was called the arab-israel war? BTW you are using the word "displaced" as you were talking about cattle instead of people

The UN has nothing to do with that still.

I chose to use displacment since its more general and I don't want to get into specifics.

alot of people fled on their own.
alot were kicked out or encouraged to leave.

That's not completely true. If you're referring to the WW2 it's a big fat lie. Arabs had no reason to kick out jews since the creation of the state of Israel.

It happenned after WWII.
And it is a fact. Some 680,000 jews that lived in arab countries were persecuted or kicked out.

There are still very very very small communities in Iraq, Iran and Syria, but they are constantly harrassed, often on charges of conspiracy or espionage.

The " Return Law" was issued after the declaration of independence of Israel, and allows every jew in the world to have the israeli citizenship. You call this persecution?

The Law of return is what allowed them to return.
Israel infact took responsability to save those jews from persecution.

Persecution was in riots in which jewish property was destroyed and jews were killed. government persecution. limiting of rights. ceisure of property.

now, if they had been in some way responsible for a war it would be logical. but they were persecuted merely because they are jews, and they were automatically seen as israeli comrades.

Call me crazy but if tomorrow the UN says that I have to give up my country to a foreigner I wouldn't want that as well.

This is a huge over simplification of what happenned.

There are jews that lived here for generations. On the other hand there were also arabs who immigrated from other areas like syria.

Infact, there never was an independent country in palestine, except for the times it was called Judea and Israel - under Jewish rule.

Or I could kick you out of you own home and sending you live in the restroom if I could prove I was living there before you. That's definitely not right.

Look, jews start immigrating to palestine, hoping to set up some country in it.

Jews actually bought lands from landlords and developed it. Or it settled in free parts.

It is a very natural process of peoples immigration that has happenned along history.

How do you think the syrian arab palestinians got to Palestine? Immigration.

And, fought back means that you kick an invader out of your country. Now, where's the palestinian country? Nobody knows. And while they were there, they also decided to invade some more countries and take more land than it had been promised by the UN (referring to the period since 1967), including Syria, Egypt and Jordan.

Fought back means it fought back against the arab armies which invaded Palestine and Israel in 1948 and local commandos which existed since 1947.

The arabs denied the partition plan, claiming that they should have arab rule even over areas with jewish majority.

Just because Israel managed to overturn the odds, doesn't mean it is guilty.

I remind you that from 1949 until 1967 the West Bank, attributed to Palestine was under occupation by - Jordan!

Jordan infact is a part of historical palestine - that's right. It's some 78% of historical palestine, that the British randomly decided to part and give to the Hashemic dynasty which helped them in WWI.

Gaza was under Egyptian rule until 1967.

As far as Israeli conquests in 1967 go - you should also read some info about the arms and agression race towards the war, and then you will understand why Israel chose to attack in advance, instead of being caught in surprise.

Notice that we returned the territory we conquered from Egypt to Egypt, even though it is larger than Israel some 5 times iirc.

Why? Because they had sincere intentions of true peace.

We were also ready to give back some 99% of the land we took from Syria and up to 97% of the West Bank and Gaza. But they didn't care for true peace.

Why didn't we offer 100%? Because that way if we get attacked again we get a small advantage. The west bank has a height advantage. So does the Golan. Notice its called "The Golan Heights".

But look at what the germans did and say if there are common things in the way israelis are treating the palestinians since the creation of Israel state.

Hmmm...
I suggest you re-read the text I posted and you'll see how ludicrous is what you are saying.

Can terrorism againsts civilians under any circomstance be justified? no!
Can killing an inocent civilian who is by accident near a terrorist under any circomstance be justified? no!

That's easy to say for you because you're sitting there in chilly europe / america and watching us die.

Tell me, if you knew that you can prevent Sept 11, the death of 3,500 people if you will send a rocket on Osama's house in afghanistan, that may kill 100 innocent people, what do you do?

Well let me tell you - when you are a participant in a war and face the actual risk of being among the dead, you prefer the dead to be on the other side of the fence.

[Sirotnikov]

Call me crazy but if tomorrow the UN says that I have to give up my country to a foreigner I wouldn't want that as well.

Well if Sicilians (sp?) want to form thier own state, what would you do?

The UN charter says that they can do that.
So do the 14 principles of Willson on which modern politics are based in one way or another.

This is a bad habit after 1939. Hitler started it and every idiot meant to imitate this. The overwhelming majority of wars after 1000 BC simply was about power, and very rarely about living space (as Hitler pretended).

Even still - wars got people displaced.

I don't see any french in england or any english in france.

I don't see english subjects on American soil.

I see french in canada (not french subjects though).

I see spaniards in america.

I see russia controlling areas with mongolians, ukranians, armenians, and dozens of other nationalities.

A war for power doesn't result in displacement of people - you may find one or two exceptions, but it was definitely not the rule. After a war for power, the leading class of the beaten population was killed or imprisoned, and the mean folk became a servant class or continued their usual life under new rulers.

But your claim that most wars were wars of power is untrue.

It is true mostly for late classical age in Europe. But only there.

There's a whole world outside Europe!!

The idea one region = one people = one state is the most sick consequence of the 19th century nationalism (mostly spread by the French Revolution).

whether it is sick or not is a very subjective subjects.

The palestinains seeem to think otherwise.
So do the Taiwanese. So did many Yugoslavian nations. So do many sub-spanish nations. So did many north Irish.

Just because you don't believe in nations doesn't mean you should force your concept on everybody else.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by kolpo
First want I to point out that there where before the US involevement in WWII also American groups who supported Hitler and even nazism. Some of them waved nazi flags and wore nazi costums, those would be happy to coolaborate but Germany was just to far away.

Groups like that still exists withing the US, in the past in the pre-Reagan time, had the right wing of the republicans even some simpathies with antisemitisme.

The US waited also longer to fight Hitler then most European nations(off course where some forced(being attacked) in the war, that I agree with).


Am talking about non axis part of europe here(so all nations except italy and germany).

A part of the euopean population, a minority did indeed coolaborate with the nazis. Just like there was a part that fighted against them and helped jews.

Neither europe nor the US have moral high grounds in this issues.

But to say that every inhabitant of europe(=meaning of the word europeans) is responsible for the holocaust is nonsense. Just like the idea that we are anti semestic, the majority isn't anti semectic, the biggest part of the population just doesn't care, so all you see is the small group(of mostly muslim imigrants) who are anti-semestic.

Oh and mine point about the middle east:
Can terrorism againsts civilians under any circomstance be justified? no!
Can killing an inocent civilian who is by accident near a terrorist under any circomstance be justified? no!

Only a few dozen Americans actually went over to Germany and volunteered to fight for Hitler, while hundreds of thousands of non-german europeans volunteered to join the Wafen SS. The axis in europe consisted not only of Germany and Italy, but also Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and Finland. Also consider that a number of so called allied nations which were occupied by the axis actually produced more volunteers for the axis cause than for the allies!
Anti-semitism was endemic in europe long before WW2. It's most insidious document, the forged "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" was penned not by a German, but a frenchman who was also a noteable of the Church as well. The Czars of Russia gleefully used this document to their own ends wheneve they saw fit. Political parties in Austria passed it around as if it were a fact, and a number of Austrian parties used it as to support their primary party platforms. During the war individuals throughout europe willingly assisted the Germans in their crusade to eradicate the Jews. We now know that the French police, most of whom had held their positions since before 1940, were avid supporters of the "Final Solution". Anne Frank may have been hidden by some Dutch people, but she was also betrayed by other Dutch people. Poles, Croats, Serbs, Romanians, Bulgarians, Hungarians and Russians all eagerly helped the Russians hunt down Jews and in some cases did the dirty work of murder for them. Even in Italy, once Hitler had Mussolini in his care and could require his co-operation the Italian fascists willingly assisted in the roundup of Jews. Do you honestly think that without civilian assistance the German holocaust could have been so efficient? After centuries of interbreeding the average european Jew didn't look that much different from his gentile neighbors. Of course, you couldn't have told that to a european then.

After the end of WW2 Genral Douglas McArthur, as the commanding allied general in Japan, actively assisted in covering up the role of emporer Hirohito in the war crimes of Japan, and encouraged focusing the blame on a certain number of well known but expendable military leaders. This was done in order to rapidly stabilize Japan. The Allied high command did the same thing in europe to the extent that the wide spread collaboration of non-combatant neutral and allied civilians was very much downplayed and blame was focused on a few high level nazis military and political leaders.

Now that europeans are once agin calling for the extermination of the Jewish race it's time to air out europe's dirty laundry. You've got some really messy undies out there.

[Zulu Elephant]

Tell me, if you knew that you can prevent Sept 11, the death of 3,500 people if you will send a rocket on Osama's house in afghanistan, that may kill 100 innocent people, what do you do?

If you knew that the 3,500 WTC deaths would somehow save 120,000 non-american lives would you feel that the WTC attack was justified?

[Datajack Franit]

alot of people fled on their own. a lot had been kicked out out forced to leave

Then I really don't think they kicked themselves out, someone must have, am I wrong?

There are still very very very small communities in Iraq, Iran and Syria, but they are constantly harrassed, often on charges of conspiracy or espionage

Yeah, and not even a single muslim had ever received the same treatment in Israel

There are jews that lived here for generations. On the other hand there were also arabs who immigrated from other areas like syria

There were jews but they were a minority. The whole south mediterranean coast was populated by arabs for centuries, while Israel ceased to exist after the Persians (or babilonians?) invaded the area, then the arabs came. The jews then left and spread around the world.

BUT the Israel nation was gone

Persecution was in riots in which jewish property was destroyed and jews were killed. government persecution. limiting of rights. ceisure of property.

Honestly, can you say that not even a palestinian had been killed, persecuted, had his rights limited and seen his properties stealed and destroyed by an israeli? I read about so many stories about all the horrible things israeli troops did and still do. And if you are an honest person (I'm sure you are) you can't deny that.

Myself as an italian I admit what my people did during the WW2. I hope you can as well.

Infact, there never was an independent country in palestine, except for the times it was called Judea and Israel - under Jewish rule

There was the Ottoman Empire, and btw you could say that at that time there wasn't even a turkish nation, etc...

Why? Because they had sincere intentions of true peace

So you said that I can invade a foreign country for defending myself then refuse to give it back even after there's no more danger? I'd call that the israeli Lebensraum, and wonder who had the same thoughts in Europe many ages ago

We were also ready to give back some 99% of the land we took from Syria and up to 97% of the West Bank and Gaza. But they didn't care for true peace.

So because they didn't want peace you keep their land?
Ohhh you deserve a medal, next time you seek more peace use a nuclear bomb as well
About Golan.. isn't that the Golan area is rich or fruit plantations and underground water supplies?

more to come

[Sandman]

Israel is a fine example of why self-determination is a flawed concept and should be abandoned.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Sandman
Israel is a fine example of why self-determination is a flawed concept and should be abandoned.

The principle of self-determination is responsible for bringing the Imperialist era to an end. Before the principle of self-determination was conceived nobody thought that there was anything wrong with the idea that powerful nations could take control of the less powerful forming multinational empires.



Free Scotland now!

[Datajack Franit]

Well if Sicilians (sp?) want to form thier own state, what would you do? The UN charter says that they can do that

So the sicilians can have their own state but the palestinians cannot. Very interesting point.

I see spaniards in america

Only because they are there it doesn't mean that exterminating dozens of civilizations was right

So do the Taiwanese. So did many Yugoslavian nations. So do many sub-spanish nations. So did many north Irish

They were all forced to live together in a common country. Look what's happened to all of them.

I believe in nations. I believe in democracy. I think that everyone should live in a country where everyone have the same rights. And forgive me if this sounds stupid to some of you.

[kolpo]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Now that europeans are once agin calling for the extermination of the Jewish race it's time to air out europe's dirty laundry.

Are you actually serious? Do you really believe that the majority of the euopeans wants the extermination of the jewish race?

Oke do a poll in europe with the question "Do you want the extermination of the jewish race?" I highly doubt more then 15% will vote yes, actually most will be very angry at the poller for even suggesting that question.

There live many jews in europe, they are a part of the european culture and can by all standards be considered europeans, just the idea that you believe we want the extermination of them is stunning.

Europeans means: all those who live in europe.
I live in europe and I don't want the extermination of them so your statement is with this proofed wrong. Actually a generalizing statment like that could be considered racist.

Yes the jews where prosecuted in the past of europe just like every other none christian religion. Just like europe heavily discriminated againsts other religions discriminated the US against black people. But quite all those we did that are now death and you can't blame a child for what his father did. A region can't be responsible of something, how could a piece of land be responsible? But people can, but most responsible are already death.

I sense in europe that most racism is towards muslims(especially after 11/9) . That is in some cases becoming scaring, like people who see all muslims as terrorists and fundamantalists. In the muslim population of europe is there indeed a big amount of anti-semitism but not in the mind of the average european.

I actually think that most europeans unlike there leaders have more simpathies with Israel then the Palestines. But in many countries in europe is the government much more pro palestine then the population(especially after 11/9).

[Sandman]

The principle of self-determination is responsible for bringing the Imperialist era to an end. Before the principle of self-determination was conceived nobody thought that there was anything wrong with the idea that powerful nations could take control of the less powerful forming multinational empires.

Here are the problems I see with self-determination.

*It encourages ethnic cleansing and the creation of 'homelands' regardless of who lives there. These homelands often overlap leading to neverending conflict.

*There is almost no limit to the number of potential peoples, nor to the number of 'homelands'.

*Self-appointed leaders of a 'people' can make claims which the majority do not agree to.

*Stateless peoples are made out to be inferior.

*People can be effectively disenfranchised by buying their demands off with powerless vassals.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Israel is like Turkey,

have Football clubs in Europe, Eurovision song contest
what else?

Generally they are considered European for most part.

* I think Kazahstan is a part of UEFA too ... so maybe Europe is expanding

* I forgot Maccabi was European Basketball champ several times.

What more do you need to claim Europe?

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Zulu Elephant
If you knew that the 3,500 WTC deaths would somehow save 120,000 non-american lives would you feel that the WTC attack was justified?

If I had reason to believe so, I could have thought the attack was justified.

However, the attack targetted civilians which makes it illegitimate.

I do not support the purposeful targetting of civilians.

However, I would see an attack on the pentagon justified if it would somehow magically save thousands of people.


But also it depends on whether i'm an involved party and which side i'm on.