Rugby - The beautiful game

[finbar]

Betting Update #4

academia 102-20 = 82

Andydog 104-34 = 70

Caligastia 107-20 = 87

finbar 80-20 = 60

Havak 100-30 = 70

LDiCesares 102

ravagon 100-30 = 70

Tamerlin 105-20 = 85

The bets placed break down as follows:

All Blacks
academia 20
Andydog 34
Caligastia 20
Havak 30
ravagon 30

South Africa
finbar 20
Tamerlin 20

Where the dickens are you LDiCeasres?

[Mickeyj]

Right I'm not exactly sure hoe the betting works, but **** it I'm sure the boks will scrape thru so put me down for 30gold.

The weather forecast, if you can trust such reckons there "shouldn't" be any rain just blustery conditions.

[finbar]

How Much Do You Stand To Win?

Again, where necessary, I've rounded up and down according to which side of .5 you fell.

If the ABs win by 12 points or more:

academia 26
Andydog 45
Caligastia 26
Havak 38.5
ravagon 38.5

If the Boks finish closer than 12 points, draw or win:

finbar 87
Tamerlin 87

This doesn't mean the book is closed to LDiCesares or Mickeyj. Or indeed anyone else who cares to join us. I'll just re-calculate.

[Havak]

Thanks for the background on the organisation of Aussie S12 teams Finbar. I still think there’s some validity in my allegation of them being Artificial constructs however in the fact that the teams don’t have total freedom in the players they have on roster – the ARU gets involved there?

I can't imagine why anyone over there would seriously suggest a province system. People with too much spare time on their hands, obviously.

Well there was, until quite recently, a strongly motivated pressure group who were pushing for the game here to model itself entirely on S12. That completely ignored the distinct history and nature of the game in our respective countries. It has died off considerably in the last couple of seasons as the European Cup has become the central focus of the game here.

He is a bit hot tempered and his opponents know it too well.

It sounds like he will fit right into the Tigers pack then Tamerlin

I am a little worried about his permed hair however – that will not last long in English rugby.

I even have an AB jersey

I should mention here that I am very casual today, and am sat here in a Wallabies polo shirt – yes really.

and the only song that the English fans sung was 'Sweet Chariot'.

What? Not even Jerusalem?

And that riposte the Kiwis sang is the traditional one in any case – it was started by the Celts (pick anyone of them and you might as well be right).

I drove through Leicester once and the hail was bouncing 6 inches off the pavements.

You were there in the height of summer then you lucky devil.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Thanks for the background on the organisation of Aussie S12 teams Finbar. I still think there’s some validity in my allegation of them being Artificial constructs however in the fact that the teams don’t have total freedom in the players they have on roster – the ARU gets involved there?

Sorry to be shooting you down in flames again! It gives me absolutely no pleasure! The ARU has nothing to with the playing rosters of our S12 teams. It's a free (and very competitive) market. Players are contracted by the teams. Players coming off contract are chased by other teams. The S12 teams all have their individual sponsors and backers.

BTW, the very talented 2nd-rower David Giffen is finally recovered from injury. He may well be leaving the Brumbies and heading to the Waratahs.

The ARU is only really involved in the administration of the comp. Oh, and luring RL players across to rugby. Players like Matt Rogers, Wendell Sailor, et al, were contracted to the ARU when they crossed from RL. Beyond that, which S12 team they play for, and how much they earn, is usually decided in a bidding war between the S12 teams. Which is pretty much what's happening now with the latest RL convert, Lote Tuquiri.

It has been different in NZ, I gather. At one point, I know the AB selectors were shuffling players between their S12 teams, all in the cause of making sure various players had the best opportunities to prove themselves (with an eye towards AB selection). I don't know whether that policy still exists.

Well there was, until quite recently, a strongly motivated pressure group who were pushing for the game here to model itself entirely on S12. That completely ignored the distinct history and nature of the game in our respective countries. It has died off considerably in the last couple of seasons as the European Cup has become the central focus of the game here.

S12 was created for a couple of specific reasons - to promote the game, and provide a competition level beyond club level but beneath international level. Because, as I've pointed out many times before, our club comp can't - and won't - ever expand to any extent, S12 was a necessary invention. The reasons why it was created here don't exist - and have never existed - over there.

I should mention here that I am very casual today, and am sat here in a Wallabies polo shirt – yes really.

Notice how it puts 6" onto your chest? And, if you pray hard enough, elsewhere.

[Havak]

Sorry to be shooting you down in flames again! It gives me absolutely no pleasure!

Well of course not

The ARU has nothing to with the playing rosters of our S12 teams

I nearly raised the League guys until I saw you had addressed it

I must have tarred Australia with the same brush as NZ – I do recall a fuss when the Kiwi Union almost forcibly made Lomu move (away from Blues was it?). I had naturally assumed that if the Kiwis did something Australia would have to do it better?

the very talented 2nd-rower David Giffen is finally recovered from injury

Excellent news – I rather rate Giffen – good player. In fact after RWC 03 I'd be happy to see my club go in for him to play alongside Kay and Louis Deacon when the big man retires.

He makes a massive difference to the Aussie pack IMO. In fact I’ve kept an eye on him since you first brought him to my attention – was that two years ago? I hope to see him up against Ben Kay in November. Also anyone who throws a punch that knocks Bobby Skinstad down is fine by me.

The reasons why it was created here don't exist - and have never existed - over there.

Although strangely the European cup is filling that same interim role – the players rate it highly as it gives ‘International’ experience to a lot of players – giving the lads on the fringe of the national setups chance to experience a higher level of rugby.

But as you say the club scene here is radically different and the top level has been high profile for a long time, no S12 like shake up was needed, just better organisation and professional players. There are clubs everywhere in the UK and local leagues to the umpteenth level. There have been problems with the national player roster decreasing over the last decade but I think, if the club gossip I put such great store in is right, this is now improving.

Notice how it puts 6" onto your chest? And, if you pray hard enough, elsewhere.

I am fervently praying as I write.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar
I suspect you picked up a Wellington newspaper dated December or January. Anyway, if the weather's anything like you predict, it makes the 12 points even more luxurious for you AB backers, methinks.

Bah! Suddenly the All Blacks are not capable of running rugby?? Bollocks to that! The Boks will be a chance for us to fine-tune our team and beat the Wallabies in Sydney!

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar

If the Boks finish closer than 12 points, draw or win:

finbar 87
Tamerlin 87

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
I must have tarred Australia with the same brush as NZ – I do recall a fuss when the Kiwi Union almost forcibly made Lomu move (away from Blues was it?). I had naturally assumed that if the Kiwis did something Australia would have to do it better?

Nuh. It was (and might still remain, for all I know) just expediency on the Kiwis' part. I remember Lomu, along with a lot of others, was moved. The Kiwis have always claimed to have been fairly ambivalent about the S12 competition, arguing that they rate their NPC more highly. On that basis, they use the S12 as: (a) a money-making exercise; and (b) a vehicle for manipulation in order to further the national cause. Fair enough, I guess, along as they're competing legitimately. It wouldn't work here. It wouldn't be allowed to happen. There's too much local pride.

Excellent news – I rather rate Giffen – good player. In fact after RWC 03 I'd be happy to see my club go in for him to play alongside Kay and Louis Deacon when the big man retires.

You might well have your way. If you can afford him. The ARU is anticipating a wholesale exit to the NH after the RWC. I don't know whether he'll go, but he could. He must be in his late 20s now. In fact, the wholesale exit is the main reason the ARU has been snaffling the top RL players. Planning for the future.

Also anyone who throws a punch that knocks Bobby Skinstad down is fine by me.

Are you of the view that Skinstad is overrated? If so, you're not the only one from what I can gather.

Although strangely the European cup is filling that same interim role – the players rate it highly as it gives ‘International’ experience to a lot of players – giving the lads on the fringe of the national setups chance to experience a higher level of rugby.

That's what I mean - you already have (and have had) formats in place that serve the S12 purpose. OTOH, I suppose I can see the mentality that would still push for a S12-type format over there. It would be led, I'm sure, by the marketing types. Bugger 'em.

I am fervently praying as I write.

"Forgive Havak, Father, for he has sinned ... he has envied an Australian ... "

[Tamerlin]

About the Heineken Cup : the top level players of the French Championship are choosing the teams which are playing the H Cup. I think the same goes for the british teams.

Of course, this has absolutely nothing to do with money.

The European Shield is nothing more than a kind of European second division.

I don't like to admit it but I think the competition level is higher in the S12 than in the H Cup. Whether it is true or not, I still prefer the H Cup because the game is different, more closer to what I consider being the true spirit of our favorite game.

About Saturday's game : if we are right Finbar my pockets are too small for all the gold we are about to earn. With all this money, what about a trip to Apolytonia ?

[Andydog]

Bah! Suddenly the All Blacks are not capable of running rugby?? Bollocks to that!

I think that Finbar was moaning again about 12 pts being too slim a margin - he wants more (a common Aussie trait )

I'm looking forward to the Wallaby Spring Bok game - where I shall be backing the Boks. I would give my left bollock for SA to beat Australia.

Obviously an accountant

No where near. But let me tell you about Mickeyj's current job... ... he's a private dancer in Candy's House of Fun! (sorry mate it slipped out)

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Andydog
I'm looking forward to the Wallaby Spring Bok game - where I shall be backing the Boks. I would give my left bollock for SA to beat Australia.

That would be soooo sweet!! I will be supporting the Boks in that game for sure! I support two teams, the All Blacks and anyone playing Australia.

[Havak]

It wouldn't work here. It wouldn't be allowed to happen. There's too much local pride.

This is scary. A complete match between the UK and Australia on something to do with rugby?

The ARU is anticipating a wholesale exit to the NH after the RWC.

Which is of course why I sneaked the point into my post.

I’ve checked his age and he will be 30 just after the world cup. If we sign him for two years he will be the right player to help nurture Deacon to his potential in that time.

I had thought locks are something Australia are quite weak on – it’s well documented that I think Harrison was a one catch wonder and is otherwise pretty average. You still sit Cockbain on the bench right? No strength in depth there? Are there promising youngsters around?

Signing League converts doesn’t strike me as that sensible a forward planning exercise – it’s the junior infrastructure of the sport that provides the long term production line. Fund the junior game and tempt the kids away from Aussie Rules (I know, I know, it will not happen!)

Are you of the view that Skinstad is overrated?

Can I just say I don’t think he has achieved, or perhaps proved, anything that suggests to me he is the real article?

It would be led, I'm sure, by the marketing types. Bugger 'em.

Absolutely

he has envied an Australian ...

Has he?

I don't like to admit it but I think the competition level is higher in the S12 than in the H Cup.

I have to pick up on that one Tamerlin. I agree in that at the pool stages there are teams involved who would be slaughtered in the S12 – as they would in the English and French leagues. By the elimination stages the clubs are as strong as a whole as the S12.

We need to consider only the top six S12 sides are of truly high quality – the rest make up the roster just like the bottom half of the French and English tables do.

Whilst the Kiwi fans swamped Planet Rugby to vote Crusaders as something like 1:3 favourites to win the world club championship that’s really just wishful thinking on their part – they have seen less English and French rugby than I have S12 - there is actually very little between the top 2-3 teams in S12 and the French and English leagues IMO.

The problem is we will never find out – the seasons don’t match and any clash would therefore have little validity (unless Tigers won Finbar of course)

Mind you the SH guys will be happy they have a wedge to drive between us now.

I’m off soon guys so heres to a good game Saturday. I won’t post until Monday as I have an urgent appointment with some bitter this weekend (tea total for two weeks thanks to the back). Look out Leicestershire, Havak is back!

[Andydog]

That would be soooo sweet!! I will be supporting the Boks in that game for sure! I support two teams, the All Blacks and anyone playing Australia.

I also support those very two teams.

btw, when do we find out if Tuqiri joined the Reds?

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Andydog
btw, when do we find out if Tuqiri joined the Reds?

Dunno, I havent heard anything.