Rugby - The beautiful game

[finbar]

Betting Update

It has been determined that the Boks have a 12 points start against the ABs this Saturday night.

In simple terms, that means a bet on the ABs requires the ABs to win by 12 points or more for the bet to succeed.

Conversely, a bet for the Boks requires the Boks to: (a) lose by less than 12 points; (b) draw the match; or (c) win the match for the bet to succeed.

With some bets (*) already placed, the bank stands as follows:

academia 102

Andydog 104

Caligastia 107-20 = 87*

finbar 80-20 = 60*

Havak 100

LDiCesares 102

Tamerlin 105-30 = 75*

And the bets already placed break down as follows:

All Blacks
Caligastia 20
Tamerlin 30

South Africa
finbar 20

Betting is officially open, lads, be bold!

[Havak]

but a theory doing the rounds here is that RL's too entrenched actually to die out and that its future is primarily as a very localised sport

I doubt it will die – but it’s future as a top TV contract backed sport is very doubtful here. I think there’s a significant difference between the UK and Australia with RL in that here it isn’t a bigger sport by any means – there is a much healthier Union Infrastructure throughout all of the country but the North West of England. We therefore don’t have the ‘hearts and minds’ challenge that faces the ARU in pulling the drones away from the tedium that is RL.

I wasn't making light of your back spasm, Havak, far from it.

Don’t worry – I never took it that way.

I can see plenty of humour in a ‘big strong bloke’ like myself being laid low by a few stressed ligaments however.

Besides, Caligastia know he only occupies the throne at our pleasure.

Without wanting to sound sycophantic sometimes I love the way you phrase things. Of course occupying the throne has some very different connotations in the UK

If they were playing in SA, and at altitude, I'm sure that would be a factor.

oops – dumb Havak got the venue wrong. I was working on the 6N one home, one away pattern…DOH!

As I said much earlier, I think it was a very early bluff for the S12 and Tri-Nation negotiations in 2005

Sorry I missed that. You are dead right of course.

Thanks Tamerlin for the background on your anthem – fascinating stuff.

are even considering the lyrics are too violent and that they ought to be modified in order to soften the anthem

Most countries have moral minorities trying this – there’s a whole verse of God Save the King/Queen that glorifies killing rebellious Scots, Flower of Scotland is all about killing the English and most Welsh rugby songs contain anti-English lyrics. On the whole it doesn’t bother me too much – these songs after all reflect our history as a nation and the history of the UK is knocking seven bells out of each other.

If any of those three could be considered major it would be Ireland.

They are a promising side. Where they suffer is they have less depth than the Australians even. This was exposed very badly in NZ in June – the second string can’t quite cut it.

all the national anthems of the SH would be far more impressive if there weren't sang by a singer and if we could hear the crowd as in the six nations tournament

I agree with this. I have to admit hearing the crowds in Edinburgh, Cardiff, Paris and Dublin sing the anthem and other rugger songs is awesome. The hairs on my neck stood on end when I heard the French singing their anthem for the 2001 Cup final in Paris and that was in the old, small, Park De Prince.

I doubt Finbar will mind me saying that Aussie crowds struggle to get involved. They don’t sing and their support is limited mainly to shouting “Go Wallabies”? When losing they go very very quiet – which is a massive contrast to the Celts for sure who sing all the louder (particularly the Irish) and even the French and English who adopt a resigned “what the hell” attitude. On the plus side Finbar you might say this is because we are more used to losing?

I am not sure how NZ crowds behave having never, to my shame, seen the ABs live – but then you do keep turning down our requests for fixtures Caligastia (admittedly we ask you to only bring 13 players).

On a different note can I go 30 on the ABs please Finbar?

[Andydog]

Put me down for 34 gold on the ABs!

You're seriously trying to tell me you don't think the ABs can't score 3 more tries than the Boks? If they can't, you're T-O-A-S-T against us in Sydney next month.

Of course the ABs are capable of scoring 3 more tries than the Boks. They are capable of doing that against the Aussies in fact. But to be fair, the boks have a lot of potential, and when they do manage to get it together they are a formidable side. And they tend to get it together more so against the ABs. The ABs have only ever beaten the Boks by more than 15 points just 3 times. You are all underestimating them imho.

Talk about laugh - I'm almost wetting myself ... oops ... don't you hate it when a metaphor comes to life?

I hope it didn't dribble onto your computer cables mate. An Aussie getting zapped up the willy - now that's a laugh!

[Tamerlin]

Finbar : I have voted for a 12 points margin because I feel it's more challenging but I think the AB won't beat the Boks by more than ten points.

But this is a rather tricky bet, the matches between the AB and the Boks are always tight but in the other hand the Springboks are not at their top level. I would rather bet 20 golds rather than 30.

Thus my bet is : 20 golds on the Springboks.

[Andydog]

I am not sure how NZ crowds behave

The games I have been to have always contained a huge amount of yelling and chanting - but not so much singing. There are songs that get sung, but nothing like the songs sung by English soccar fans. I guess that's because soccar, more often than not, is boring. The fans have to occupy their time somehow.

Havak rest assured I will be yelling at the English in November!

[Havak]

There are songs that get sung, but nothing like the songs sung by English soccar fans

Don't get confused please - the singing at UK Rugby games is far removed from the tribal aggro crap that spews forth at Soccer games.

The singing at rugger can be truly moving as opposed to thoroughly frightening.

Soccer actually ranks below RL in the list of ways I would waste my time.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak
On the whole it doesn’t bother me too much – these songs after all reflect our history as a nation and the history of the UK is knocking seven bells out of each other.

I couldn't agree more, many people underestimate the importance of history. Many people don't realize that some decisions can wipe out several decades or centuries of history.

For example : the creation of provinces was envisoned in the French Rugby Championship, though the idea is rather seducing it would sweep up the history of the clubs merged to form the said province. As far as the Stade Toulousain is concerned, a rich history more than a century old would then be sweeped up, 15 champion titles would be condemned to disappear with the fading memories of its former supporters.

To a lesser extent, the decision to replace the letters of the Leicester Tigers shirts with numbers is also removing an old tradition.

I have to admit hearing the crowds in Edinburgh, Cardiff, Paris and Dublin sing the anthem and other rugger songs is awesome. The hairs on my neck stood on end when I heard the French singing their anthem for the 2001 Cup final in Paris and that was in the old, small, Park De Prince.

Yeaaaaah ! I couldn't have said it better.

I've seen two French Championship Final at the "Parc des Princes" and two at the "Stade de France" (all won by the Stade Toulousain ), the later one is nothing compared to our old "Parc des Princes". With something like 30,000 people less than the "Stade de France" the crowd of the "Parc des Princes" managed to produce ten times more noise. The "Stade de France" is cold and widely open to the air where the "Parc des Prince" is a hot and closed space I like to label as a caldron.

Moreover, playing the final and international rugby matches at the Stade de France has also wiped out several decades of history.

This is also true for the "Arm's park" (they should'nt have changed the name) and before long to "Lansdowne Road".

[Havak]

I totally agree with you about the history of our clubs being important. The province idea is often mooted here but my club was formed in 1886 and is fiercely proud of it’s history.

I’m not sure Finbar and Caligastia would agree though – after all the premier competition in their hemisphere and the teams that play in it are a mere seven years old. The S-12 teams, even if they ripped names from existing clubs, are totally artificial constructs right guys?

It’s tricky – I accept the game must move forward – but the past is important too. And then there is irrational emotion – there are many Tigers fans who would not support a province that included Northampton (our nearest rivals) – that would be like asking a Waratahs fan to cheer on the reds.

"Parc des Princes"

I never get the name right

Cardiff is a bit weird in that “Cardiff Arms Park” is still there – it is the home of Cardiff RFC and sits in the shadow of the Millennium stadium. The old stadium known as the Arms Park was actually called the “National Stadium” apparently. The name of the new stadium was dictated by the fact half the money for it came from a lottery fund of the same name IIRC. Having said that the Millenium stadium is a great place – easy to get to you seat quickly and easy to vacate too.

The old stadium had concrete benching and that was very bad for the old "derriere".

Landsdowne Road does need developing, but it would be nice if they retained the name. Twickenham is a good stadium but a nightmare to get to. We need a new national English stadium. Somewhere near Leicester would be nice.

It is worth everyone reading a certain English lock's latest piece on PR - find it here Jonno speaks

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak
It’s tricky – I accept the game must move forward – but the past is important too.

You're right, but I think a middle ground can almost always be found.

I never get the name right

Hmmm ! It seems I have also somewhat misspelled "Arms Park" and "Landsdowne Road".

The old stadium had concrete benching and that was very bad for the old "derriere".

Landsdowne Road does need developing, but it would be nice if they retained the name. Twickenham is a good stadium but a nightmare to get to. We need a new national English stadium. Somewhere near Leicester would be nice.

Though I understand the stadiums are now old and that they have to be rebuildt, I think their name and location (as far as it is possible) should not change. I would have prefered "New Arms Park" rather than "Millenium Stadium".

Thanks for the background of the Arms Park and the "Millenium Stadium".

It is worth everyone reading a certain English lock's latest piece on PR - find it here Jonno speaks

Who could have believed I would agree with Martin Johnson.

[Havak]

I would have prefered "New Arms Park" rather than "Millenium Stadium".

I agree - but mainly I would have prefered it to be built in England as public money was involved.

I have seen Tournaire at our ground for his photo call - I think we got a good signing there?

Who could have believed I would agree with Martin Johnson.

As I have bored Finbar to death with despite the appearance he gives on the field Jonno is actually a very smart chap - normally what he says is worth listening to.

[finbar]

Betting Update #2

academia 102

Andydog 104-34 = 70

Caligastia 107-20 = 87

finbar 80-20 = 60

Havak 100-30 = 70

LDiCesares 102

Tamerlin 105-20 = 85

The bets placed break down as follows:

All Blacks
Andydog 34
Caligastia 20
Havak 30

South Africa
finbar 20
Tamerlin 20

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
I doubt it will die – but it’s future as a top TV contract backed sport is very doubtful here. I think there’s a significant difference between the UK and Australia with RL in that here it isn’t a bigger sport by any means – there is a much healthier Union Infrastructure throughout all of the country but the North West of England. We therefore don’t have the ‘hearts and minds’ challenge that faces the ARU in pulling the drones away from the tedium that is RL.

True. You also don't have the competition we have from Australian Rules. The AR territories, and they are in the majority, will never ever be converted to rugby. The games - and fan bases - couldn't be further apart. The big rugby matches draw massive crowds in Melbourne - AR HQ - but Melbourne sporting fans will turn out to watch any high quality sporting event. The local Melbourne rugby comp is basically a mob of die-hard desperates.

I can see plenty of humour in a ‘big strong bloke’ like myself being laid low by a few stressed ligaments however.

Oh! A big strong bloke ... I had a mental picture of you as a Georgie Gregan look-a-like. Okay, with hair.

Without wanting to sound sycophantic sometimes I love the way you phrase things. Of course occupying the throne has some very different connotations in the UK

Here too. And you picked it like a scab!

I doubt Finbar will mind me saying that Aussie crowds struggle to get involved. They don’t sing and their support is limited mainly to shouting “Go Wallabies”? When losing they go very very quiet – which is a massive contrast to the Celts for sure who sing all the louder (particularly the Irish) and even the French and English who adopt a resigned “what the hell” attitude. On the plus side Finbar you might say this is because we are more used to losing?

We have absolutely no history in the singing department. Which, I think, is a terrible shame. The ABs - to respond to your next point - have no history either. Australian crowds will take the p*ss out of the other supporters' singing - which is the Australian way - but most of them find it stirring and evocative. I'm not actually sure why we don't have the singing tradition. Probably because Australians hate public displays of emotion.

On a different note can I go 30 on the ABs please Finbar?

Done. After some easy pocketmoney, hm?

[finbar]

Originally posted by Andydog
Put me down for 34 gold on the ABs!

Done! And your 4 units has f*cked up the arithmetic completely!

The ABs have only ever beaten the Boks by more than 15 points just 3 times. You are all underestimating them imho.

You may be right. OTOH, the Boks haven't been through such a massive transition as they have recently. This is a very young, inexperienced team.

I hope it didn't dribble onto your computer cables mate. An Aussie getting zapped up the willy - now that's a laugh!

Cheaper than Viagra and I didn't have to get up to turn out the lights!

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
Thus my bet is : 20 golds on the Springboks.

Done!

[Havak]

You also don't have the competition we have from Australian Rules

But I do have to say we trail a long way behind soccer in getting bums on seats. And the crowds don’t overlap that much – very similar to your situation with Aussie Rules in fact.

I had a mental picture of you as a Georgie Gregan look-a-like. Okay, with hair.

Pretty off the mark on both counts (okay, I’ve got hair really)

I'm not actually sure why we don't have the singing tradition. Probably because Australians hate public displays of emotion.

Perhaps also because you don’t play the nations that live and breath singing with the game. I think we Poms are just as reserved on the display of emotions but we have to thwart the singing of the other side.

And yeah - I'm hoping for some pocket money please.