Poles burn Jews alive - Nazi's blamed.

[Ecthy]

since it isn't connected to it, I have no obligation to explain you anything

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
since it isn't connected to it, I have no obligation to explain you anything

Well, apparently in the minds of the people who ordered both the "Final Solution" and "Operation Barbarossa" there was a link. The link was the philosophy outlined in "Mein Kampf", so it wasn't about protecting Europe from Bolshevism, but rather it was about constructing the bright shining stinking Nazis future world.

[chequita guevara]

Of course there was a link. Everyone knows us commies are drones of a Jewish conspiracy. Even we know it.

[Boris Godunov]

Doc, Ecth was never talking about the Final Solution. He was simply wondering why the US didn't see fit to ally itself with Germany against Soviet Russia, as the Communists were common enemies.

Neither the United States, nor Great Britain, nor any other country in the war fought it help the Jews. Most didn't know what was happening, and those that did seemed to not care. Since the purpose in the Allies fighting the war wasn't about the Jews, then your first post to Ecth is rather a moot point.

[chequita guevara]

The West found Hitler as a necessary bulwark against Communism, but that didn't mean they wanted to be associated with it. Rather, they hoped that the Nazis would crush the Bolshies without involving them in it. The Nazis, however, kept thumbing the West's noses, making and breaking agreements. Czechoslovakia was a recipient of massive amounts of French investment. When the Nazis seized it, it was rather like taking a French colony. Britain and Poland had a similar relationship. The two imperialist powers hated the Commies, yes, but their Eastern European empires were at stake. That's why the West went to war.

[Heresson]

Some more info.
Perhaps You don't know it, but Polish participants
(40 men) of those atrocities were in fact sentenced
in the fourties, and by that Poland in fact admitted
that Poles were involved in killing jedwabnian Jews.
On the monument in the village there was written however that it's German thing (and that there were 1600 victims while there are some 330-440), and Polish participance wasn't discussed though the case was known in Israel and it was sometimes brought back to
life. The question was German role. they were present there, and organised the mass-murder, but though they were convincing Poles to kill Jews, probably they didn't give an order. But remember that local citizens
generally didn't participate in the murder, they were "neutral" (some tried to save some of the Jews, some time ago a case of one women that was keeping the Jews and was beaten almost to death by one of the murderers
was published as an article) probably afraid -rather of the men involved in the crime than the Germans, though.

" Neither the United States, nor Great Britain, nor any other country in the war fought it help the Jews. Most didn't know what was happening, and those that did seemed to not care. Since the purpose in the Allies fighting the war wasn't about the Jews, then your first post to Ecth is rather a moot point."

It were Poles to first inform Allied forces of what is happening to Jews in fact.
But if my memory isn't failing me, even Jewish ministry by Polish gouverment dfidn't believe that. When he got to know it is true, he commited suicide.

[Ned]

Dr. Strangelove, What was Murrow saying to get American’s so excited about joining the fight against Germany? On what side of that war, circa 1940, was “truth, justice and the American Way?” IIRC, in 1918 Germany surrendered conditionally based on Wilson's 14 points, below. None of these, save one, included territorial concessions. However at the settlement conference, Britain and France imposed somewhat different conditions including territorial concessions to which Germany (and Austria) had not agreed. The United States Never agreed to these conditions but rather were concerned that they were unfair. We never signed the Treaty. Thus when Germany began to undo the Treaty in the ‘30s, many here in the United States were probably sympathetic -- so much so that entering the war on the side of Britain and France would be to associate America with the unfair Treaty of Versailles.

Thus in 1939, it was far from clear that Britain and France were on the right side of this conflict.

America’s attitude began to change, I believe when Germany signed the German/Japan/Italian Axis agreement in 1940, and then when it invade Russia in 1941. The former placed it in alliance with the fascist regime in Italy that had been aggressively invading other countries, and with Japan, who had attacked China and committed the outrage in Nanking.

1. No secret treaties
2. Free access to the sea in peace time and war time
3. Free trade between countries
4. Disarmament
5. Colonies to have a say in their future
6. German troops to leave Russia
7. Independence for Belgium
8. France to regain Alsace-Lourraine
9. Frontier between Austria and Italy to be adjusted
10. Self determination for the people of eastern Europe
11. Serbia to have access to the sea
12. Self determination for the people in the Turkish Empire
13. Poland to become an independent state with access to the sea
14. League of Nations to be set up

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ned
Dr. Strangelove, What was Murrow saying to get American’s so excited about joining the fight against Germany? One what side of that war, circa 1940, was “truth, justice and the American Way?” IIRC, in 1918 Germany surrendered conditionally based on Wilson's 14 points, below. None of these, save one, included territorial concessions. However at the settlement conference, Britain and France imposed somewhat different conditions including territorial concessions to which Germany (and Austria) had not agreed. The United States Never agreed to these conditions but rather were concerned that they were unfair. We never signed the Treaty. Thus when Germany began to undo the Treaty in the ‘30s, many here in the United States were probably sympathetic -- so much so that entering the war on the side of Britain and France would be to associate America with the unfair Treaty of Versailles.

Thus in 1939, it was far from clear that Britain and France were on the right side of this conflict.

America’s attitude began to change, I believe when Germany signed the German/Japan/Italian Axis agreement in 1940, and then when it invade Russia in 1941. The former placed it in alliance with the fascist regime in Italy that had been aggressively invading other countries, and with Japan, who had attacked China and committed the outrage in Nanking.

Murrow gave live radio broadcasts from London during the blitz. His depiction of British heroism in the face of a seemingly vastly superior enemy wgose attacks appeared to be centered on unarmed civilians swung the sympathy of many Americans. I believe that his broadcasts were the first use of real time broadcasts from a war zone.

[Ned]

Dr. Strangelove, Unarmed civilians! This is what caused America to enter the war against Germany in 1917. It seems that the Germans never really understood why we got pissed at them in the first WW.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Doc, Ecth was never talking about the Final Solution. He was simply wondering why the US didn't see fit to ally itself with Germany against Soviet Russia, as the Communists were common enemies.

Yes, but the fact that it was Hitler's Nazis Germany leading the way definitely had a lot to do with why these countries wanted no part of a german led anti-Soviet war.

Most Americans knew that the Germans were persecuting the Jews before the US entered the war. In 1943 photographic evidence about the genocide of the Jews was made available to the US, but John Dulles surpressed it. FDR eventually found out about it and put Morgenthau, the only Jew on his cabinet in charge of disseminating the information. By that time the US was doing all it could to prosecute the war against Hitler, but the US goverment came to an agreement with the other allies that they would no longer turn away Jewish refugees.

The governments of postwar Europe could have put a great deal more effort towards providing for the safety of European Jews.

[Ned]

Why in the bleeping world would Dulles try to suppress such information? Such outrages would seem to have only increased America's support of the war effort.

[Dr Strangelove]

Dulles was a closet anti-semite. He thought that the evidence was forged by whiney Jews!

[Ned]

Could this also be a reason the Pope did not act? Suspicion that the evidence was fabricated by the "whiney" Jews?

[chequita guevara]

There was lots of belief that the "evidence" was manufactured by the Soviets in order to rush an American invasion of France. I'd like to see some sources on the Morgenthau info, because my understanding is most Americans were unprepared for what they discovered at Bergen-Belsen.

One of my high school teachers was in the first squad to enter Bergen-Belsen.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Heresson
Hitler wouldn't have attacked if He didn't have Moscow's approval (Ribbentrop-Mo?otow...)

Why you are so sure?
Destruction of Bolshevicks and occupation of Russia were his goals from the beggining.

SU could have helped Poland in their fight against Germans. It didn't.

Why SU should help to former enemy (Poland) who captured a part of its territory in its war against new enemy (Germany)?

It also declared that it's in eastern Poland to protect Byelorussians and Ukrainians, caring not for Poles giving as a snap for Hiler, and Poles in the east were being systematically either sent to Kazakhstan or deep Russia, or murdered. And SU wasn't national state and it's aim wasn't to care about nations of its own, was it.

May be I didn't understand something but, first you said- "It also declared that it's in eastern Poland to protect Byelorussians and Ukrainians", it means that SU did care about nations of its own, then you said-"SU wasn't national state and it's aim wasn't to care about nations of its own, was it.". Explain please what do you really mean.

Soviet Union started the war.

No. Poland started it. SU was aready under attack of another 13 foreign countries and have a civil war. Only a madman will start another war in this situation.

It is fight for independance. Not only ours. Pilsudzki fought for independant Ukraine too.

If this is fight for independance (wich is really unlikely, becouse you were already independant from Russia, independant before the war), then fight this war on your territory. You sended your army into territory of another country, which means that this is an intervention.

It is funny in fact. Under tzarate, though it didn't admit there are any Poles in Byelorussia, Poles f.e. were majority of representatives of Mi?sk gubern, though they were wuite small minority there (7 Poles on 10 people there I think). but SU did what tzarate wasn't able to do through all those years; get rid of Poles and rusificate Byeloruthenians.

Blah, you are protray this as Byelorussia were under Poland control before SU, or something like this. In fact both Poland and Beylorussia were parts of Russian Empire and Byelorussia was part of RE since very, very long time.

Byelorussians and Poles are.

You are running away from an answer. You said: "How USSR treated Poles can be seen in simple comparison; until Stalin got to power, there were 351 Polish school in EASTERN Byelorussia itself. Today, in entire Byelorussia there is one Polish school, built recently for Polish money."
So, I ask again: How many Byelorussian schools were in Poland in Stalin's times and how many Byelorussian schools in Poland now? I wounder if ever was a single such school in Poland.

Russians are our big old bad ugly naughty cousin that molests us both.

At least we are relatives.
(But, someday you'll pay for this "ugly" word.)

NOW. And anyway, why should it be?

Always was and always be. Because of the Constitution of republic Byelorus.

I know... ZBIR... he he he

ZBIR??? WTF is this?

You know the same well as I do that the way of destroying Byelorussia goes through gate of union with Russia.

Prove it. For more then 70 years 15 national republics lived in one country known as Soviet Union. Before this time the same nations lived in Russian Empire. But they didn't lost their uniqe cultures, languages or traditions during all those years.

In Poland, Byeloruthenian language is alive, while in Byelorussia, it is dieing because of long rusification process that ?ukaszenka, though he should, isn't trying to stop. He'd rather make his country a province of Russia (and union between R and B must end up in this. It's like a marriage bewteen a snake and a frog), in order to become important Russian politician. Poland tried to be nice to Byelorussia -it ended up in ?ukaszenko pointing out Poles of Grodno as National Enemies. ?ukaszenka is a dictator and You, Russia know it, but it doesn't make You change your politics.

You know, dictators usally don't dream to make its country a province of foreign country. It's against the idea of dictatorship, the idea of absolute power.

Byeloruthenians had no sense of their nationality and their language was not used as literature language. Literature language of Byelorussians of that time was still Polish. There were some 22 Byelorussian schools in Poland. Byelorussian language was persecuted first as dialect of Polish one, later as a separate language by Russians who wanted to make Byeloruthenians Russians (and Byeloruthenian Poles Byeloruthenians) and Russians are to blame for the pathethic state of Byelorussian culture in those times. Under the tzarate and (except the time until Stalin) SU, Russians, clearing out Polish influence that's grown during the past centuries (peacefully) replaced it with influence of their own. Some 25% of Byelorussians speak their nationla language now.

Why you just can't face it: BEYLORUSSIANS DON"T WANT TO LIVE WITH YOU IN ONE COUNTRY. THEY WANT TO LIVE IN ONE COUNTRY WITH US. And this is not the wish of only their president, but wish of entire Byelorussian people. The polls in Byelorussia and in Russia shows that absolutely majority of people in Byelorussia and Russia want to live in united country. Case is closed. Byelorussian people feel that they more tied with Russia then with Poland.

And in Smole?sk area that once was Byelorussian, only 3%.

Little comment: Smolensk is one of the oldest RUSSIAN cities.