Poles burn Jews alive - Nazi's blamed.

[germanos]

I think it is not irrelevent. It makes you think of what to group people in.

to bogi: yes, and this is something to think about...

[bogi]

Hitler started the war because Poland accepted the jews and didnt persecute them. Poland had the largest Jewish Population in europe and they lived there for 600years peacefully. You never see any jews mentioning that do you ?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by faded glory
Just a side note. On the history channel . . .

Don't you mean the Hitler Channel? All Hitler, all the time. Serious, these guys are like the Reader's Digest of history.

There is substantial evidence to believe that Stalin was not only fooled by the Nazis, but that he though he was fooling the Nazis. Stalin expected a war . . . it's just that he expected to start it. The Soviets ahd been expanding military production and building and equipping their armed forces. My understanding is that he planned to attack Nazi Germany in '44 or '45. Come to think of it, he was right on schedual.

Ecthelion, the non-German purpetrators of Jewish progroms in ocuppied Ukraine weren't Uncle Joe's forces, but rather anti-communist Ukrainian paramilitaries allied with the Nazis. Stalin's anti-Semitism didn't manifest itself until the late '40s, when he had a falling out with Golda Mier (apparently she snubbed him).

FG, alliance is a strong word. They had an agreement not to attack each other, and an agreement to partition Poland. As far as the USSR was concerned, they were only taking back what Poland had stolen from them in the war of 1920-21 (Poland attacked the USSR and won). The Soviets did committ attrocities there, including the muder of some 10,000+ Polish officers. Interestingly, as the Red Army marched across Poalnd, the the people in the areas they conqured rose up against their landlords and bosses, seizing the land and factories. The Red Army was welcomed as liberators, although that view of them soon changed.

[Ecthy]

Boris - he's talking about civilized people, not frogs... so you can rule out East Central Europe as well

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by bogi
Hitler started the war because Poland accepted the jews and didnt persecute them. Poland had the largest Jewish Population in europe and they lived there for 600years peacefully. You never see any jews mentioning that do you ?

Poland's acceptance of the Jews ended with the 3rd Partition of Poland. When Poland was recreated at the end of WWI, it was hardly the center of European enlightenment it had once been. It quickly became a ferocius dicatorship under Pilsudski, attacked its neighbor the USSR to grab land, and treated its Jews as second class citizens.

During the occupation, the Poles gleefully participated in the persecution of the Jews, turning them over to the Nazis, murdering them themselves, working at the death camps, stealing Jewish property. Even when they did help the Jews, they did so in such a way as to tqake advantage of them, gouging them for food and taking bribes not to turn them in.

After the war, when a scant 60,000 of the original three million Jews were left and tried to return home, they were met with violence and pogroms. Only 9,000 Jews remained in Poland for the longest time, though I undertand there's about 25,000 Jews in Poland now.

Yes, Poland was so nice to the Jews.

[germanos]

Bogi: Hitler wanted 'Lebensraum' for his 'ubermenschen'. He wanted to move East fromthe start. The fact that France and Britain would not let him advance there was the reason for the War in western Europe. If they had not done so, he would not have moved West at all.

[Ecthy]

The Poles are also considered widely anti-semitic nowadays. You wouldn't find any Pole admitting to mistakes of his people though, they're the biggest nationalists there are in Europe

[C0ckney]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
It quickly became a ferocius dicatorship under Pilsudski, attacked its neighbor the USSR to grab land, and treated its Jews as second class citizens.

I think you'll find the red army tried to capture Warsaw, as a steping stone to Germany and got its bottom smacked. The Poles then counter-attacked and captured Wilno, Lwow and Minsk. After trying to attack Kiev, they were driven back towards Warsaw, the Soviets attacked and were defeated badly. The war ended in 1921 and the Soviets were forced to give up territory.

Also it should be noted that Poland helped the Ukrainians in their struggle for freedom from the USSR, and in 1921 admitted 700,000 Jews from the USSR.

So in other words Poland

[faded glory]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Don't you mean the Hitler Channel? All Hitler, all the time. Serious, these guys are like the Reader's Digest of history.

There is substantial evidence to believe that Stalin was not only fooled by the Nazis, but that he though he was fooling the Nazis. Stalin expected a war . . . it's just that he expected to start it. The Soviets ahd been expanding military production and building and equipping their armed forces. My understanding is that he planned to attack Nazi Germany in '44 or '45. Come to think of it, he was right on schedual.

Well I like the history channel. Yes it seems to be an Outpost for Hitler loving types. But its got some pretty damn good documentrys. Like the one on the faalklands and Korean war.

Stalin may have believed this. But positioning of his troops Pre-War suggested otherwise. There was about 2/3 of the Soviet army facing Europe. Most were in the same positions they had been in 1939. This never changed, and nothing was really done in anticipation of a Nazi attack. And the fact remains, Stalin didnt believe the germans had attacked him until 3 days into Barbarossa. Instead he killed 4 of his advisors, who he thought was lieing to him.

So, history speaks for itself in some ways. My guess would be Stalin had no idea, or chose to not believe impending warning of a German buildup. And, he wrote in his personal. That he thought Hitler,Japan and him would take over the world and destroy the west once and for all.

So 4 weeks before barbarossa, the german ambassador wrote a letter saying it was 'ok' to annex the rest of finland and push into Sweden. However, Stalin never acted, or was preparing to act on this. Looking back in hindsight, this looked like a ploy to get troops away from the European borders.

FG, alliance is a strong word. They had an agreement not to attack each other, and an agreement to partition Poland. As far as the USSR was concerned, they were only taking back what Poland had stolen from them in the war of 1920-21 (Poland attacked the USSR and won). The Soviets did committ attrocities there, including the muder of some 10,000+ Polish officers. Interestingly, as the Red Army marched across Poalnd, the the people in the areas they conqured rose up against their landlords and bosses, seizing the land and factories. .

Yes but think about it. Baltic states fall, Eatern poland annexed, Finland attacked. Looks like the Russians were working in steppe with the Germans. That probably was the case. Im not saying it was wrong, Im saying it looks like stalin bought the whole non-aggression bit.

The Red Army was welcomed as liberators, although that view of them soon changed

The Irony of this is. When the Germans entered Ukraine, White Russia, and the baltics. There were alot of people cheering the german soldiers as liberators. This was not the case a few years later. But still, the fact remains.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by C0ckney
I think you'll find the red army tried to capture Warsaw, as a steping stone to Germany and got its bottom smacked. The Poles then counter-attacked and captured Wilno, Lwow and Minsk. After trying to attack Kiev, they were driven back towards Warsaw, the Soviets attacked and were defeated badly. The war ended in 1921 and the Soviets were forced to give up territory.

Yes, the USSR did almost take Warsaw, after driving the Poles out from the initial invasion. If Stalin hadn't disobeyed orders and tried to go for his own glory, the Soviets might have been able to smash the invaders. As it was, Stalin's treachery allowed the Poles to concentrate first on one army and then Stalin's. The USSR surrendered to Poland after this and gave up the territory that they would later reoccupy in 1939. Poland started the war, no the USSR. The USSR was already fighting 13 other coutrnies and six White Armies. They weren't looking for yet another enemy.

In other words, Poland

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by faded glory
Yes but think about it. Baltic states fall, Eatern poland annexed, Finland attacked. Looks like the Russians were working in steppe with the Germans. That probably was the case. Im not saying it was wrong, Im saying it looks like stalin bought the whole non-aggression bit.

Not doubting any of what you've written here, but I was taught that the Baltic states were occupied in order to have a more strategic position vis a vis the Germans. The whole point of the Winter War against FInalnd was to get some breathing room around Leningrad. The same with the reoccupation of Moldavia.

[Ecthy]

C0ckney, in the war where the Poles were in Belarus and the Ukraine, the Soviets didn't do anything as a stepping stone for the Germans. You're mixing up the years 1920 and 1939

[bogi]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Poland's acceptance of the Jews ended with the 3rd Partition of Poland. When Poland was recreated at the end of WWI, it was hardly the center of European enlightenment it had once been. It quickly became a ferocius dicatorship under Pilsudski, attacked its neighbor the USSR to grab land, and treated its Jews as second class citizens.

During the occupation, the Poles gleefully participated in the persecution of the Jews, turning them over to the Nazis, murdering them themselves, working at the death camps, stealing Jewish property. Even when they did help the Jews, they did so in such a way as to tqake advantage of them, gouging them for food and taking bribes not to turn them in.

After the war, when a scant 60,000 of the original three million Jews were left and tried to return home, they were met with violence and pogroms. Only 9,000 Jews remained in Poland for the longest time, though I undertand there's about 25,000 Jews in Poland now.

Yes, Poland was so nice to the Jews.

Name any other country that treated the jews fairly ?? For over 600 years jews lived in Poland and prospered just look at the Kazimeriz District in Krakow.No country in the world gave the jews that much freedom except Poland.

Pilsudski didnt like the UltraOrthadox Jews because they were a burdenaccording to him. So some bad things happend during that time but name anyother country with a huge jewsih population that treated the jews any better during that time.

[bogi]

"During the occupation, the Poles gleefully participated in the persecution of the Jews, turning them over to the Nazis, murdering them themselves, working at the death camps, stealing Jewish property. Even when they did help the Jews, they did so in such a way as to tqake advantage of them, gouging them for food and taking bribes not to turn them in. "

Pure and utter 100% Bull****!! You Facist ****er!!!


Poland was the only country that Hitler occupied and gave an automatic death sentance for hiding the Jews. There are more Polish trees planted and names in the Holocoust Memorial in Isarel then from any other country in the world.More Poles helped the Jews then any other known Nationality I dont know where you got your information from.

[chequita guevara]

bogi, how Jews were treated by the Kingdom of Poland/Grand Duchy of Lithuania is really irrelevent. How you treated them under the Russian Empire and in the 20th Century are important.

However, to directly answer your point, in fact, most course on Jewish history do point out the tolerance of Poland-Lithunania. During that period, it was not merely the most religious tolerant country in Europe (except possibly for the Ottomans) it was also the center of European learning and culture.

One other country in Western Europe treated the Jews well and that was Ireland. However, there were never that many Jews there, and under the English occupation, Jews were oppressed along side the Irish. In other countries, this usually resulted in the locals turning on the Jews. In Ireland, common oppression resulted in the Jews being seen as brothers.

But that was then, this is now. The golden age of Poland was over two-hundred years ago and shows no sign of returning.