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One of the great ironies of history is that many European Jews including concentration camp survivors came to Australia as refugees to start a new life. On the same boats were war criminals from all over Eastern Europe who came here to do exactly same thing.
I know many people whose Eastern European parents or grand parents probably murdered Jews and certainly mutter darkly about how Hitler was right and are very proud of their service in his army.
Any views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer. Tis the rising of the moon..
Bismarck after defeating the French put down a revolution there, so there would be a precedent for the French putting down a German revolution. Note that in Germany there were plenty of reactionaries who spent time commie hunting, and the French army of this time was the best in the world. I think the French would be able to crush any communist revolution in Germany.
"I'm moving to the Left" - Lancer
"I imagine the neighbors on your right are estatic." - Slowwhand
The camp guards in East Poland, Czechoslovakia and other eastern places were heavily staffed by locals, not Germans. The Germans administered the camps, certainly, but they got the locals to do a lot og their dirty work. Ukrainians and Slovak were used particularly as guards. Recall that "Ivan the Terrible" was a slav. I'm not trying to excuse German actions, but it is reprehensible to deny the complicity of all people in the crimes of the Holocaust who participated, POLES included. We can also point a finger at the French, too, in this case. It is delusional to suggest otherwise.
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
and the French army of this time was the best in the world. I think the French would be able to crush any communist revolution in Germany.
Best in the world? After WWI? I dunno about that. I don't think you can say this about the French army at any point post-1815... Source?
If Poland and Baltic states wouldn't have been destroyed,
Hitler wouldn't be able to attack USSR...
Firstly, no one DESTROYED Baltic states and secondly, you perfectly realize that this is bs. If Stalin don’t occupy western Poland, then Hitler occupy ENTIRE Poland and it changed nothing. In this case Germany still have common frontier with SU and possibility to attack SU.
Poland was the one to start military action, but only after our secret services gave information about Smole?sk council, on which plans of invading Poland were discussed.
Oh, you’ve returned to your favorite conception: “we know that will be attacked sooner or later, so we better strike first.” Excellent. No matter what your secret services known, it doesn’t changes the fact that Poland started this war, not Russia.
Poland wasn't intervenient. Otherwise, it would have taken its chance to overthrow communism. It didn't.
What, overthrow of communism is the major motive for intervention? You wanted to capture a part of territory of foreign country and launched a war, send an army. If this is not an intervention, that I don’t know what it is.
What surprises me if that guevara defends USSR.
He did not defend the USSR, he defend the historical truth. I am agreed with his opinion 100%.
How USSR treated Poles can be seen in simple comparison; until Stalin got to power, there were 351 Polish school in EASTERN Byelorussia itself. Today, in entire Byelorussia there is one Polish school, built recently for Polish money.
Sorry Heresson, but this is pure bullsh!t.
You are talking about BYELORUSSIA, not POLAND. Why in small Byelorussia should be more the 300 Polish schools? It’s sovereign country. The official languages of Byelorussia are Byelorussian and Russian, not Polish language. And finally, if you think that today (or during times when Byelorussia was part of Soviet Union) in Byelorussia should be 351 polish schools (like in old good times of Russian Empire), answer how many Byelorussian schools now in Poland or was in Poland in times of SU?
Just please, don’t start again your favorite song that Eastern Byelorussia always was very close tied with Poland, etc. Just face it. Byelorussians and Russians are brothers. Russian is official language of Byelorussia, not Polish. We live in united country with Byelorussia not you are, sure the institutes of this united country currently on formation stage, but many things were already done for integration. Soon we’ll have one currency with Byelorussia and then we’ll integrate in one country again.
Shi is correct here. The French army was the best in the world up until the late 1930s in equipment, and their doctrine wasn't bad until the Germans developed their mass armor techniques. If one were to look at the troops and equipment alone, the Germans should have been beaten in 1940, as they were outnumbered in tanks and aircraft with a decisive qualitative edge to the French in tanks. Of course the Germans never fought the entire French Army at once, but broke it into parts and defeated it piecemeal.
He's got the Midas touch.
But he touched it too much!
Hey Goldmember, Hey Goldmember!
"One of the great ironies of history is that many European Jews including concentration camp survivors came to Australia as refugees to start a new life. On the same boats were war criminals from all over Eastern Europe who came here to do exactly same thing.
I know many people whose Eastern European parents or grand parents probably murdered Jews and certainly mutter darkly about how Hitler was right and are very proud of their service in his army."
I know. These are Latvians (parades of SSmans), Ukrainians (Bandera...), Russians (Wlasow)...
and surely a bit Poles, but very very very very little.
"The camp guards in East Poland, Czechoslovakia and other eastern places were heavily staffed by locals, not Germans. The Germans administered the camps, certainly, but they got the locals to do a lot og their dirty work. Ukrainians and Slovak were used particularly as guards. Recall that "Ivan the Terrible" was a slav. I'm not trying to excuse German actions, but it is reprehensible to deny the complicity of all people in the crimes of the Holocaust who participated, POLES included. We can also point a finger at the French, too, in this case. It is delusional to suggest otherwise."
Oh I'm not saying that some Poles participated. Jews participated too. In fact,
some time ago I got to know that one Jew that worked in conc. camp lives in my city.
"Firstly, no one DESTROYED Baltic states and secondly, you perfectly realize that this is bs. If Stalin don?t occupy western Poland, then Hitler occupy ENTIRE Poland and it changed nothing. In this case Germany still have common frontier with SU and possibility to attack SU."
Hitler wouldn't have attacked if He didn't have Moscow's approval (Ribbentrop-Mo?otow...)
SU could have helped Poland in their fight against Germans. It didn't. It also declared
that it's in eastern Poland to protect Byelorussians and Ukrainians, caring not for Poles
giving as a snap for Hiler, and Poles in the east were being systematically either sent
to Kazakhstan or deep Russia, or murdered. And SU wasn't national state and it's aim wasn't to care
about nations of its own, was it.
"Oh, you?ve returned to your favorite conception: ?we know that will be attacked sooner or later, so we better strike first.? Excellent. No matter what your secret services known, it doesn?t changes the fact that Poland started this war, not Russia."
Soviet Union started the war. For SU of that time, any peace treaty with any capitalistic state was temporary.
And note; when we were loosing, we agreed on backing off to the injust Curzon line, but You didn't accept that.
"What, overthrow of communism is the major motive for intervention? You wanted to capture a part of territory of foreign country and launched a war, send an army. If this is not an intervention, that I don?t know what it is."
It is fight for independance. Not only ours. Pilsudzki fought for independant Ukraine too.
"He did not defend the USSR, he defend the historical truth. I am agreed with his opinion 100%"
Anyone that names himself after communistic guru can't be objective in that matter.
"You are talking about BYELORUSSIA, not POLAND. Why in small Byelorussia should be more the 300 Polish schools? It?s sovereign country. The official languages of Byelorussia are Byelorussian and Russian, not Polish language.
Soviet Union isn't a federation of nations. That would be nationalistic. Poles got a number of schools smaller than Jews
and not much bigger than Russians at the start.
And finally, if you think that today (or during times when Byelorussia was part of Soviet Union) in Byelorussia should be 351 polish schools (like in old good times of Russian Empire),
Russian empire persecuted Poles and didn't accept their presence in Lithuania or Byeloruthenia,
claiming that these are "polonised Byelorussians/Lithuanians" or just catholic Byelorussians
that speak Polish language and mistakenly declare Polish nationality (which was corrected
by administration). Poles were -unlike Byelorussians - much more often educated and well-organised.
It is funny in fact. Under tzarate, though it didn't admit there are any Poles in Byelorussia,
Poles f.e. were majority of representatives of Mi?sk gubern, though they were wuite small
minority there (7 Poles on 10 people there I think). but SU did what tzarate wasn't able to do through
all those years; get rid of Poles and rusificate Byeloruthenians.
answer how many Byelorussian schools now in Poland or was in Poland in times of SU? Just please, don?t start again your favorite song that Eastern Byelorussia always was very close tied with Poland, etc. Just face it. Byelorussians and Russians are brothers.
Byelorussians and Poles are.
Russians are our big old bad ugly naughty cousin that molests us both.
Russian is official language of Byelorussia, not Polish.
NOW. And anyway, why should it be? At those times there were much
more Poles in Byelorussia and Polish was more spreaded than Russian there.
Russian is official language of Byelorussia now, as result of uniformisation
(rusification) actions by SU.
We live in united country with Byelorussia not you are,
I know... ZBIR... he he he
sure the institutes of this united country currently on formation stage, but many things were already done for integration. Soon we?ll have one currency with Byelorussia and then we?ll integrate in one country again."
You know the same well as I do that the way of destroying Byelorussia goes through
gate of union with Russia. In Poland, Byeloruthenian language is alive, while in Byelorussia,
it is dieing because of long rusification process that ?ukaszenka, though he should, isn't trying
to stop. He'd rather make his country a province of Russia (and union between R and B must
end up in this. It's like a marriage bewteen a snake and a frog), in order to become important
Russian politician. Poland tried to be nice to Byelorussia -it ended up in ?ukaszenko pointing
out Poles of Grodno as National Enemies. ?ukaszenka is a dictator and You, Russia know it,
but it doesn't make You change your politics.
oh, it took me some time to find it. In 1934, there were 321 Polish schools. Just I'm not quite sure in only
in Byeloruthenia or in all USSR. It says that in Byeloruthenia, but in previous years (1931) there were 166 of them.
However, it says that there were 301 jewish schools then, perhaps some of them used Polish language
(those numkbers are in fact interesting there was even estonian school there).
All Polish schools were closed in 1937 and Polish autonomies were deleted.
There weren't many Byelorussian schools in western Byeloruthenia, but taht comes out of one thing I said about before;
Byeloruthenians had no sense of their nationality and their language was not used as literature language.
Literature language of Byelorussians of that time was still Polish. There were some 22 Byelorussian schools
in Poland. Byelorussian language was persecuted first as dialect of Polish one, later as a separate
language by Russians who wanted to make Byeloruthenians Russians (and Byeloruthenian Poles Byeloruthenians)
and Russians are to blame for the pathethic state of Byelorussian culture in those times.
Under the tzarate and (except the time until Stalin) SU, Russians, clearing out Polish influence
that's grown during the past centuries (peacefully) replaced it with influence of their own.
Some 25% of Byelorussians speak their nationla language now. And in Smole?sk area that
once was Byelorussian, only 3%. Poles had even action of declaring byelorussian language in order
to strenghten it up against Russian, but ?ukaszenka is on a good way of destroying his nation.
The source for numbers ; P.Eberhardt, "National developments in Byeloruthenia" (or whatever)
Oh, in fact the ones to blame for activising Byelorythenians are Germans, they wanted
druing the Iww to make trouble both to Poles and Byeloruthenians...
But I must admit one thing, that SU treated Poles alright - at the start. Eberhardt wrote that wehn Byelorussian
republic didn't want to accept decision of creating Polish autonomy in one city, Moscow accused it of continuing
old tzarish anti-Polish politics and forced good for Poles sollution. But Somehow when Soviet attitude changed,
in another city Polish ratio dropped from 80% to 26% in one day...
"I realise I hold the key to freedom,
I cannot let my life be ruled by threads" The Web Frogs Middle East!
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