Poles burn Jews alive - Nazi's blamed.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
Nope, it looked like we had the same enemies as you, but you never helped us wiping out the coms.

Are you surprised?
If I remember correctly, it was you who started "How anyone can prefer National Socialism over Communism?". (or something like that).
What, now you want to start: "Why Western leaders were allied with communists, but not with national socialists?"

[Heresson]

"Why you are so sure?
Destruction of Bolshevicks and occupation of Russia were his goals from the beggining.

Perhaps He was just aware that Stalin wishes to invade him (and the rest of Europe)
And even if so, SU prooved by this pact that it will assist Hitler in taking Poland,
and made him sure that SU won't help Poland. So, SU made Hitler's invasion much much
more likely.

"Why SU should help to former enemy (Poland) who captured a part of its territory in its
war against new enemy (Germany)?"

Because SU as a communitstic state should be fair, and if not help the victim of attack,
it shouldn't help the attacker. You could say; Poland was doomed, so we just wanted
to keep Hitler the farer the better from our borders"
But then think about that if not the pact signed, probably Hitler wouldn't risk invasion
of Poland wand war with the West, and that by partaging Poland, You brought Hitler
closer to your borders, and got rid of ally against it.
You could say You wanted to take care of Byelorussians and Ukrainians. Then;
why You occupied also clearly Polish areas? And why did Wilno/Vilnius take your interest?
After all Lithuanians weren't one of the nations of your state.
And anyway, again by that You'd proove that USSR wasn't communistic.

" May be I didn't understand something but, first you said- "It also declared that it's in eastern Poland to protect Byelorussians and Ukrainians", it means that SU did care about nations of its own, then you said-"SU wasn't national state and it's aim wasn't to care about nations of its own, was it.". Explain please what do you really mean. "

USSR was primarly communistic state and though organised by national republics, as not-national
state, it didn't have any right to speak as a representation of any of "its" nations.
In another words; "SU's nations" are Byelorussians and Ukrainians in SU, but not Byeloruthenians
and Ukrainians in another countries. Soviet Union, as a communistic state, should care about all
the humanity, not only nations that lived in majority within its borders.
Imagine old Poland treating itself as representation of all Jews around the
war or Polish Jews as their representations, only because it had the world's largest Jewish
population. It couldn't do that, as the aim of Polish state was either to represent
its own citizens, no matter the nationality, or the interests of Poles.
So, SU's aim was either to care about its own citizens, or all communists around the world,
or all humanity.

" No. Poland started it. SU was aready under attack of another 13 foreign countries and have
a civil war. Only a madman will start another war in this situation."

I agree! I know Russians... he he eh
Anyway, SU needed the war with Poland and Petlura until Poland and Ukraine would grow in power.
We were in similar situation as USSR. And Ukraine too. Our souvereignity wasn't accepted,
our borders weren't accepted, we were surrounded by enemies. As You treat us as intervening force,
we could treat You.

"If this is fight for independance (wich is really unlikely, becouse you were already independant from Russia, independant before the war), then fight this war on your territory. You sended your army into territory of another country, which means that this is an intervention. "

That's the problem. You -theoretically- accepted independance of Poland, but only on a small
part of our territory. If You had a chance, You'd take from us even Che?m and Bia?ystok.
We didn't send army on your territory. We were fighting on territory that was ours
(why Soviet right to it was bigger than ours? The borders weren't settled, so talking
about territory of one or another country isn't rational), and the territory of allied
with us independant Ukraine, that was attacked by You (and finally destroyed)
You wanted us in the shapes of Congress Kingdom I guess.

" Blah, you are protray this as Byelorussia were under Poland control before SU, or something like this. In fact both Poland and Beylorussia were parts of Russian Empire and Byelorussia was part of RE since very, very long time.

Byelorussia and Poland - Russian anexions:
1667- (Andruszów cease-fire after Russian attack on Poland)
Smole?sk, but You claim it isn't Byelorussia. And today truely, it isn't.
1772- (I partage of Poland) - Witebsk, Po?ock (NE Byelorussia + SE Latvia)
1793- (II partage of Poland) - Mi?sk (C Byelorussia+ CW Ukraine)
1795- (III partage of Poland) - Grodno (W Byelorussia+ E,N Lithuania+ S Latvia + NW Ukraine)
1807- (Napoleon...) - Bia?ystok (NE Poland), small parts of Byelorussia.
1815- union with (Congress) Kingdom of Poland (until 1831 it was about souvereign
though tzar Miko?aj acted like if the constitution didn't exist);
CE Poland, SW Lithuania, small parts of western Byelorussia.

So, if we don't count Smole?sk, Byelorussia got under Russian control by part
43, 22 20, 8 and 0 years before Poland.
Most in 20/22 years befor Poland...

" You are running away from an answer. You said: "How USSR treated Poles can be seen in simple comparison; until Stalin got to power, there were 351 Polish school in EASTERN Byelorussia itself. Today, in entire Byelorussia there is one Polish school, built recently for Polish money."
So, I ask again: How many Byelorussian schools were in Poland in Stalin's times and how many Byelorussian schools in Poland now? I wounder if ever was a single such school in Poland. "

I don't know how it's about present times, but in those times they had 22 schools.
Note again, Polish state was a national state, SU was communistic state, and as
there was no Byelorussian literature language in fact, there was no need for those schools.
private schools existed, Byelorussians could found their own ones (2 of twenty-two in fact were
private). In USSR Poles couldn't have private schools, so the country had to make them for them.

"At least we are relatives.
(But, someday you'll pay for this "ugly" word.) "

In fact, I have a suspicion that You were adopted and that your true parents are Turks and Mongolians...

"Always was and always be. Because of the Constitution of republic Byelorus. "

Perhaps, I don't know. But if that wasn't Russian Empire, not USSR, why is it Russian?
Because it was language of the entire Empire? Why not esperanto?

"ZBIR??? WTF is this?"

In Polish; Zwi?zek Bia?orusi i Rosji.
Abbreviation=ZBIR.
In Polish, "zbir" means; "a bandit"

" Prove it. For more then 70 years 15 national republics lived in one country known as Soviet Union. Before this time the same nations lived in Russian Empire. But they didn't lost their uniqe cultures, languages or traditions during all those years. "

I believe that in fact, communism SHOULD make the nations disappear or loose on importance
if it is communism, but still, SU made nations rusificate...
Again, I tell You; in Byelorussia, hardly anyone knows how to speak Byelorussian.
Isn't that enough proof?

" You know, dictators usally don't dream to make its country a province of foreign country. It's against the idea of dictatorship, the idea of absolute power."

?ukaszenka wants to be a dictator - in Moscow, however, or he is afraid that he'll lose his
power in Byeloruthenia if he won't stick to someone big, strong&ruthless enough to protect
him despite what he does in Byelorussia. Big, bad and ruthless... Definition of Russia!

"Why you just can't face it: BEYLORUSSIANS DON"T WANT TO LIVE WITH YOU IN ONE COUNTRY. THEY WANT TO LIVE IN ONE COUNTRY WITH US. And this is not the wish of only their president, but wish of entire Byelorussian people. The polls in Byelorussia and in Russia shows that absolutely majority of people in Byelorussia and Russia want to live in united country. Case is closed. Byelorussian people feel that they more tied with Russia then with Poland."

Perhaps, but;
1)Knowing ?ukaszenka, why are You so sure that the polls aren't forged?
2)Who cares what Russians want?
3)People miss USSR, as ?ukaszenka is even worse.
They miss USSR, not Russians themselves, though yes, USSR was a mutation of RE
4)I guess Byelorussians would rather live in Poland than in Russia. We are richer,
tidier, and generally nicer. Especially me.

oh, and al(most)l ethnolinguists agree that Smole?sk area was a part of Byelorussian e-l area until recently

"None of these, save one, included territorial concessions."

hahahhahhahhahahhahhha
5. Colonies to have a say in their future
(6. German troops to leave Russia)
(7. Independence for Belgium)
8. France to regain Alsace-Lourraine
10. Self determination for the people of eastern Europe
13. Poland to become an independent state with access to the sea

Colonies lost - terrains lost for Germany.
Belgium and "Russia" -temporary gained land lost
Alsace-Lourraine - territorium lost
Self-determination of eastern Europe - that must have ment territorial losses
for Germany.
Poland - obvious German lost of territory.
(so four-six of them ment territorial losses of Germany)

[Ned]

I agree on the issue of Polish access to the sea. However, it is not clear that the breakup of the Austrian-Hugarian and Russian empires would result in significant loss of territory for Germany.

The colony bit is a little irrelevant this issue.

[Ecthy]

Serb, I'm being hypothetical

[Serb]

Heresson,
You've predicted that soon will be a long posts. You was right.

Perhaps He was just aware that Stalin wishes to invade him (and the rest of Europe)

Perhaps Stalin was just aware that Hitler wishes to invade SU? It was absolutely clear that communists can't avoid the clash with Nazi, but in 1939 SU was not ready for war yet. (Thanks to Stalin's purges in Red Army)

And even if so, SU prooved by this pact that it will assist Hitler in taking Poland, and made him sure that SU won't help Poland. So, SU made Hitler's invasion much much more likely.

I agreed. It made the invasion in Poland more likely, but I'm still sure that you were unable to avoid this invasion. IMO Hitler attaked you in any case, even if he didn't signed a non-agression pact with SU. Stalin tried to win as more time as he can, bcs he was not ready for war with Hitler yet. And sure Hitler known about this and was sure that in case of invasion in Poland SU wouldn't declare war on Germany.

Because SU as a communitstic state should be fair, and if not help the victim of attack, it shouldn't help the attacker. You could say; Poland was doomed, so we just wanted to keep Hitler the farer the better from our borders"

Yes, I could say that we wanted to keep Hitler as far away from our main cities as possible, but as for Stalin thoughts, I think he wanted to return Western Ukraina and Western Byelorussia to USSR. It was very lucky moment for him to do so, to take it without serious militery action.

But then think about that if not the pact signed, probably Hitler wouldn't risk invasion of Poland wand war with the West, and that by partaging Poland, You brought Hitler closer to your borders, and got rid of ally against it. You could say You wanted to take care of Byelorussians and Ukrainians. Then; why You occupied also clearly Polish areas? And why did Wilno/Vilnius take your interest?

I'm still think that for people who populated those territories was much better to live under SU rule, then to die in Nazi death camps. Because no matter who they were Poles, Belorussian, Ukranians, Jews or Russians all of them were "non humans" for Hitler and should be eliminated in accordance with Nazi doctrine.

After all Lithuanians weren't one of the nations of your state.

Yes, but not for long. After few months they become one of the nation of our state, again.
I guess Stalin could saw things in near perspective.
(I'm sorry, I guess it was a cruel joke a bit.)

USSR was primarly communistic state and though organised by national republics, as not-national state, it didn't have any right to speak as a representation of any of "its" nations. In another words; "SU's nations" are Byelorussians and Ukrainians in SU, but not Byeloruthenians and Ukrainians in another countries.

It's in theory he shouldn't care. In real life all was otherwise. When we lost Western Ukraine after Brest treaty, many people consider this as betayal of our Slav's brothers.

Soviet Union, as a communistic state, should care about all the humanity, not only nations that lived in majority within its borders. Imagine old Poland treating itself as representation of all Jews around the war or Polish Jews as their representations, only because it had the world's largest Jewish population. It couldn't do that, as the aim of Polish state was either to represent its own citizens, no matter the nationality, or the interests of Poles.

I don't agree with your example.Jew wern't a majority of your population and Jews didn't have their own state at this time, but if something of that kind happens today, f.e. if some country will declare that it wish to kill all jews within its borders and will start to do so, then I'm absolutely sure that after few hours Israel will declare war on this country.

So, SU's aim was either to care about its own citizens, or all communists around the world, or all humanity.

Wrong, SU did it. And in fact it was the first major power who started war with fascism. SU send an army to Spain in 1936 to fight agains Franco and to China in 1937 to fight against Japan, while other major powers done nothing. I guess that in Spain or China weren't many representatives of SU's nations. So it might be consider only as care about all humanity.

I agree! I know Russians... he he eh
Anyway, SU needed the war with Poland and Petlura until Poland and Ukraine would grow in power.
Again, only a madman need another war, when he already in war with half of the World and with half of his own population and when it's hunger and chaos in his country. We were in similar situation as USSR. And Ukraine too. Our souvereignity wasn't accepted, our borders weren't accepted, we were surrounded by enemies. As You treat us as intervening force, we could treat You.

The problem is that SU didn't existed at this time. The political situation on territories of former Russian Empire was a real mess. One of the first Bolshevik's laws was the law about "right of the nation for self-determination".
If after the success of revolution Bolsheviks declared that Russian Empire remains in it's current borders and only chaged it's form of government, then everything was much easier for them. (And perhaps now we have this conversation on Russian instead of English )
But they created this law and officialy destroyed an Empire. Why? Because of their ideas or because they feel they can't spread communism on all territories of R.E.? Perhaps because of both.

That's the problem. You -theoretically- accepted independance of Poland, but only on a small part of our territory. If You had a chance, You'd take from us even Che?m and Bia?ystok.

Don't twist the facts. The October revolution gave freedom to you, you didn't declared independance from Russia. You declared independance only becouse Bolshevicks gave this right to you.

We didn't send army on your territory. We were fighting on territory that was ours (why Soviet right to it was bigger than ours? The borders weren't settled, so talking about territory of one or another country isn't rational), and the territory of allied with us independant Ukraine,

Perhaps you are right. It isn't rational. The borders weren't settled, becouse it was one state not so long ago. As for me, much proper to see it as as part of civil war, as part of war between Bolsheviks and non bolsheviks.
But as long you consider that Poland was an independant state at this time, then it is war between two states.... And so, it was an intervention of one state against another state.
Ooops... I forget that you calling this "the fight for independanse".

So, if we don't count Smole?sk, Byelorussia got under Russian control by part 43, 22 20, 8 and 0 years before Poland. Most in 20/22 years befor Poland...

So what? Now you see that we are brothers with Byelorussians?

I don't know how it's about present times, but in those times they had 22 schools. Note again, Polish state was a national state, SU was communistic state, and as there was no Byelorussian literature language in fact, there was no need for those schools. private schools existed, Byelorussians could found their own ones (2 of twenty-two in fact were private). In USSR Poles couldn't have private schools, so the country had to make them for them.

You are mistaken when you saying that SU wasn't a national state. In theory it shouldn't be, but it was. I can explain why there weren't many Polish schools in USSR, because Poland wasn't one of the Soviet Socialistic Republics. (It's all your fault, don't tell me that there was no offer to become a member of our club). In Soviet schools (believe me I know what I'm talking about, I remember those days, yet) education was on two languages: first Russian- as the official language of state and second- the language of your national republic (or autonomy, etc). So, f.e. in Byelorussia, students studied two languages: Russian and Byelorussian. and f.e. in any atounomy within Russian Soviet Federative Socialistic Republic (RSFSR), students studied two languages too. The Russian language and the langauge of this autonomy. So, for example if I'm Russian and live for example in Kazan, I should learned two langauges in school: Russian and Tatarian, because I live in autonomy within borders RSFSR.
There was no Polish autonomy in USSR, that's why there weren't many Polish schools.

In fact, I have a suspicion that You were adopted and that your true parents are Turks and Mongolians...

Oh great!
First Ned said that Russian are desendents of Vikings. Now you are saying that we are children of Mongols and Turks. Great!
Is this bs will end someday? We are slavs. SLAVS. S-L-A-V-S.

Perhaps, I don't know. But if that wasn't Russian Empire, not USSR, why is it Russian? Because it was language of the entire Empire? Why not esperanto?

Two reasons:
1) Russians were the majority of population. The Russian language was the most widespread language in R.E. and USSR. Whould you deny that is very practical that the official language of country is the language which is known to majority of population?
2) Esperanto is a monkey language. It sounds very silly.

In Polish; Zwi?zek Bia?orusi i Rosji. Abbreviation=ZBIR.
In Polish, "zbir" means; "a bandit"

Ha ha ha.
Veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery funny. You are just jealos.

I believe that in fact, communism SHOULD make the nations disappear or loose on importance if it is communism, but still, SU made nations rusificate...

Rusificate?
Bs, bs, mega-super-puper BS.
If Russians wanted to destroy local cultures, languages, traditions etc. of the minorities, then they acted like Americans or Canadians or Brits. Through rude force: no schools, no education on local language, abolish of local traditions, local religions by force etc. Russian have a lot of time for this. Just look on American solution: 1) using technical superiority wipe out Native Americans from their lands, 2) put them in small reservations.3) took their lands. 4) let them die as nation in those preservations 5)after 100 or so years forget about any problems with them.
Russia started its expantion in 16 century, so until SU collapsed in 1991, Russians have a lot of time to "Rusificate" it's entire territory if they wanted.
As for influece of Russian culture on other cultures within Empire/SU/RF I don't deny it. What do you expected? If f.e. group of people lives in one house through all their lives, sure the sooner or later their traditions will be mixed. The same as for Russia, we lived in one country through centuries and of course Russian culture influenced other cultures, but Russian culture, Russian language and traditions were under influence of cultures of other nationalities. Russia is the one big mix of nationalities, cultures, religions and traditions.

Again, I tell You; in Byelorussia, hardly anyone knows how to speak Byelorussian. Isn't that enough proof?

It isn't a proof, because I don't believe in this. Perhaps you think that Byelorussians should learn some kind of Polish dialect, which you consider as true Byelorussian language. But I guess they know their language and learn this langauge in their schools.

?ukaszenka wants to be a dictator - in Moscow,

Lukashenko in Moscow? Good joke.

however, or he is afraid that he'll lose his power in Byeloruthenia if he won't stick to someone big, strong&ruthless enough to protect

No,perhaps he just don't want to have any deal with someone who have a "small penis complex". With someone who is greedy and anoying.
Small, greedy and anoying- definition of Poland!

Perhaps, but;
1)Knowing ?ukaszenka, why are You so sure that the polls aren't forged?
2)Who cares what Russians want?
3)People miss USSR, as ?ukaszenka is even worse.
They miss USSR, not Russians themselves, though yes, USSR was a mutation of RE
4)I guess Byelorussians would rather live in Poland than in Russia. We are richer,
tidier, and generally nicer. Especially me.

1) It was not single poll, but many polls with various check and poll done by different services. And no one protest about results of those polls.
2) Russians. It's our internal buissnes. And btw, Byelorussians want it more then we are.
3) Western media portray him as monster becouse he refused to kiss asses from Washington D.C.
4) It's only your wish. They don't care about you. They feel that they are tied with us more then with some one else. We share the commone history with Byelorussia, not you are. The people of Byelorussia made their choice, so case is closed. You may think whatever you want it will change nothing. Russia and Byelorussia soon will be a one country again. It is the wish of both Russian and Byelorussian people and it worth much more then your wish.

oh, and al(most)l ethnolinguists agree that Smole?sk area was a part of Byelorussian e-l area until recently

Entomologists?
(Ok, just kidding.)
Smolensk is one of the first Slavs cities. When it was founded there was no difference between Russians and Byelorussians.

[Serb]

Damn, I don't know why but I was unable to edit my post. However I like to erase one mistake don by me in quote from you:
You said:

however, or he is afraid that he'll lose his power in Byeloruthenia if he won't stick to someone big, strong&ruthless enough to protect him despite what he does in Byelorussia. Big, bad and ruthless... Definition of Russia!

I said:
No,perhaps he just don't want to have any deal with someone who have a "small penis complex". With someone who is greedy and anoying.
Small, greedy and anoying- definition of Poland!

I think it makes more clear what I mean.

[Saras]

Couple of points:

-Smolensk is a Lithuanian city
-Lithuania was forcefully occupied by Russia, not joined the SU. Anyone who claims otherwise doesn't know jack.
-It's VILNIUS, not Wilna

[Lefty Scaevola]

One more point, a quote from a retired USA gerneral:

"Military stupidity comes in three grades:
Dumb;
Really Dumb;
and Invading Russia"

[Saras]

--"and Invading Russia"

Valid only from like 1650's. Before that, a focused attempt could have been successful.

[bogi]

I aggre Villinus its just like Gdansk and Danzig its Gdansk!!!

Btw its Belarussians.

Oh and the argument between heresen and serb remindes me of the history of Russia and Poland. Two Slavs always fighting and bringing up facts from years ago and arguing who is more slav


Lukashenko is a dictator that is forcing the russian language on the people of belarus. Lukashenko has the cult of personality and wants to rule in moscow and thats a fact. He dreams of a USSR.Lukashenko is a traitor to his own people.

[Saras]

Yea, and he's lso like two hours without speeding from Vilnius.

[Heresson]

"Perhaps Stalin was just aware that Hitler wishes to invade SU? It was absolutely clear that communists can't avoid the clash with Nazi, but in 1939 SU was not ready for war yet. (Thanks to Stalin's purges in Red Army)

How Hitler could think of invading SU without having a border with it?

:I agreed. It made the invasion in Poland more likely, but I'm still sure that you were unable to avoid this invasion. IMO Hitler attaked you in any case, even if he didn't signed a non-agression pact with SU. Stalin tried to win as more time as he can, bcs he was not ready for war with Hitler yet. And sure Hitler known about this and was sure that in case of invasion in Poland SU wouldn't declare war on Germany.

Imagine two burglars breaking into your house. they both steal as much as they can.
On the trial, one says; I'm not a burglar, and I made a burglary appointment wit that
awful and disgusting criminal because I knew he would rob You anyway, and I that I'll be the next one, so I really needed that money of yours to buy anti-alarm system for my house!
It would be silly, and in SU/Germany case, You can't be sure if Hitler would have attacked
Poland.

"Yes, I could say that we wanted to keep Hitler as far away from our main cities as possible, but as for Stalin thoughts, I think he wanted to return Western Ukraina and Western Byelorussia to USSR. It was very lucky moment for him to do so, to take it without serious militery action."

Kill the helpless! You can't say about "return" of "western Byelorussia and Ukraine"
to USSR, as those lands never belonged to USSR, were just under temporary Soviet occupation
during Polish-Soviet war.

"I'm still think that for people who populated those territories was much better to live under SU rule, then to die in Nazi death camps.

On the frontier rivers, people were travelling in both sides shouting to the ones going in the opposite direction that they must be mad to go there, as there's hell on "their"
side. Even Jews were fleeding from Soviet-occupied regions, and demanding allowance into
German-occupied parts of Poland, and there were examples of them (blessed are those
that aren't aware...) shouting "Heil Hitler"; one German officer was so flubberbotomized
by that that he let out a cry; "Jews, what are You doing? We'll kill You! But they
still wanted to go on the German side"
Byelorussians perhaps had better life under Soviet rule. With Ukrainians
I wouldn't be so sure. But Poles. Poles were treated as badly on one and on the other
side.

"Because no matter who they were Poles, Belorussian, Ukranians, Jews or Russians all of them were "non humans" for Hitler and should be eliminated in accordance with Nazi doctrine.

No, we were just inderhuman

"Yes, but not for long. After few months they become one of the nation of our state, again.
I guess Stalin could saw things in near perspective.
(I'm sorry, I guess it was a cruel joke a bit.)

Stalin anected parts of Poland which's Polish ethnical status was never questioned.
So, Poles theoretically also became a nation of USSR for some time... And there were Poles
in USSR earlier. Why USSR didn't care about Poles, then?

It's in theory he shouldn't care. In real life all was otherwise. When we lost Western Ukraine after Brest treaty, many people consider this as betayal of our Slav's brothers.

Well, we treated it as Austrian (no-one believed in Germans) betrayal of Polish interest
because of Che?m case (not minding Wo?y? and other stuff)

"I don't agree with your example.Jew wern't a majority of your population

I ment; Poland was the biggest word center of Jewish people and Jewish culture.

and Jews didn't have their own state at this time,

So Poland...

but if something of that kind happens today, f.e. if some country will declare that it wish to kill all jews within its borders and will start to do so, then I'm absolutely sure that after few hours Israel will declare war on this country.

Yes. But that's because Israel is Jewish state. And USSR wasn't -shouldn't have been-
a state of Ukrainians or Byelorussians.

Wrong, SU did it. And in fact it was the first major power who started war with fascism.

No. It was Poland

SU send an army to Spain in 1936 to fight agains Franco and to China in 1937 to fight against Japan, while other major powers done nothing. I guess that in Spain or China weren't many representatives of SU's nations. So it might be consider only as care about all humanity.

There were a lot of Poles there too. general "Walter" f.e., later killed
oficially by Ukrainian nationalists (some people claim however that on Stalin's
command as Stalin somehow didn't like people of Spain, generally noone that knew
about any other version of communism than Soviet one.)

"The problem is that SU didn't existed at this time. The political situation on territories of former Russian Empire was a real mess. One of the first Bolshevik's laws was the law about "right of the nation for self-determination".

Yes, that was touching but had no bigger impact ob everything. Democtratic
Russian gouverment also gave Poland right of self-determination. But White Armies
didn't, at least not in what they didn't consider Poland, and we fought them
as well (and Pilsudzki's actions against You were being halted if White armies
operating on Ukraine were leading offensives against Soviets), so, anyhow,
we helped Soviets.

"If after the success of revolution Bolsheviks declared that Russian Empire remains in it's current borders and only chaged it's form of government, then everything was much easier for them. (And perhaps now we have this conversation on Russian instead of English )

A dlaczego niby nie po polsku?

But they created this law and officialy destroyed an Empire. Why? Because of their ideas or because they feel they can't spread communism on all territories of R.E.? Perhaps because of both.

No, because they wanted to get sympathy of former empire's people, and because they needed their help at first,
and wanted to make their enemies feel safe and sleep without fear, so that they could attack
and destroy them later.

"Don't twist the facts. The October revolution gave freedom to you, you didn't declared independance from Russia. You declared independance only becouse Bolshevicks gave this right to you.

Ha ha ha! You are really funny now. It had no bigger impact on polish situation. Russian
armies were far away, and anyway this "law" was "forgotten" as soon as it became useless
for Soviets.

"Perhaps you are right. It isn't rational. The borders weren't settled, becouse it was one state not so long ago. As for me, much proper to see it as as part of civil war, as part of war between Bolsheviks and non bolsheviks.
But as long you consider that Poland was an independant state at this time, then it is war between two states.... And so, it was an intervention of one state against another state.
Ooops... I forget that you calling this "the fight for independanse".

It was a civil war, and it was a war between two countries, and it was a fight for independance.
A civil war -as it was lead within the (crushing) borders of dieing empire.
it was a fight between two powers -and Soviet intervention in Poland, obviously.
It was also a fight for independance, as by oferred independance Soviets ment a place
as a republic of SU, with borders limited on the east as far as they could be,
and on the west probably too.

quote:
<http://apolyton.net/b.gif>
So, if we don't count Smole?sk, Byelorussia got under Russian control by part 43, 22 20, 8 and 0 years before Poland. Most in 20/22 years befor Poland...
<http://apolyton.net/b.gif>

"So what? Now you see that we are brothers with Byelorussians?

Ekhem? I don't understand? Byelorussia got under Russian power
not so long before Poland did. That's what I prooved.

"You are mistaken when you saying that SU wasn't a national state. In theory it shouldn't be, but it was. I can explain why there weren't many Polish schools in USSR,

There were and Poles were treated perhaps badly by Mi?sk, but good by Moscow at first
-until all were destroyed.

because Poland wasn't one of the Soviet Socialistic Republics. (It's all your fault, don't tell me that there was no offer to become a member of our club).

Yes. Theoretically no, but we were ordered to reduce our army by 20 times,
and hand over the armament to Soviets, and give Soviets the right to go into
Poland, which -again I say - was very reduced, reduced on the east to the borders
of today (wxcept for Grodno that was on the Polish side of Curzon line),
a very unjust territorial cut that would force Poland to resign of all mixed
ethnically territories, even with Polish majority) and Polish Soviet gouverment was
being formed... But again, when we agreed on the cease-fire borders on Curzon line,
Soviets weren't satisfied.

"In Soviet schools (believe me I know what I'm talking about, I remember those days, yet) education was on two languages: first Russian- as the official language of state and second- the language of your national republic (or autonomy, etc). So, f.e. in Byelorussia, students studied two languages: Russian and Byelorussian. and f.e. in any atounomy within Russian Soviet Federative Socialistic Republic (RSFSR), students studied two languages too. The Russian language and the langauge of this autonomy. So, for example if I'm Russian and live for example in Kazan, I should learned two langauges in school: Russian and Tatarian, because I live in autonomy within borders RSFSR.
There was no Polish autonomy in USSR, that's why there weren't many Polish schools.

I know about that Russian had to be learned and the language of the republic/autonomy.
The problem wa sthat there were in fact two Polish autonomies (and a third one was
to be found), so called "Dzier?y?szczyzna" and "Marchlewszczyzna"
but they were destroyed as well as smaller local national councils (not only Polish
here, but delete of bigger autonomies hit only Poles I believe)

"Oh great!
First Ned said that Russian are desendents of Vikings.

No no no. That Kievan Ru? was founded by Vikings.
And that's true.

"Now you are saying that we are children of Mongols and Turks. Great!
Is this bs will end someday? We are slavs. SLAVS. S-L-A-V-S.

Nonono. Slavs are nice, handsome, calm, cultural etc.
Vide: me.

Two reasons:
1) Russians were the majority of population.

Are You sure? It may be right, but if You count all the nations
of USSR, I doubt that Russians had more than a half-at the start.

The Russian language was the most widespread language in R.E. and USSR.

So, temporarly, it could became the official language, but SU should have cut
off from imperialistic Russian remains.

"Whould you deny that is very practical that the official language of country is the language which is known to majority of population?

Even today, many citizens of Russian federational republics don't know Russian.
They should, but they don't.

2) Esperanto is a monkey language. It sounds very silly.

It is very very good, as it was created by a Polish(-Jewish)
guy from Bia?ystok ;p

Ha ha ha.
Veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery funny. You are just jealos.


no, we have EU to get united with.
in our history we had unions with;
-Russia -aaaaaaaaaaargh
-Finland -through Russia
-Lithuania (with Byelorus) -brought us closer to Russia, but was OK
-Ukraine -for a short time
-Saxony -well, the king transported Rubenses from Warsaw to Dresden.
-(almost with Brandenburg) - I regret it didn't came true.
-Transsilvania -quite good.
-Hungary - normal
-Croatia -through Hungary
-Bulgaria ---
-(etc) ---
-Lorraigne (France) -king on exile
-Zweibrucken (Germany) -king on exile
-France -temporary
-Sweden(with Finland) -aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh
-Bohemia -bad
-(well, I could count also)Bari (Italy) -Spaniards stole it.
...


"Rusificate?
Bs, bs, mega-super-puper BS.
If Russians wanted to destroy local cultures, languages, traditions etc. of the minorities, then they acted like Americans or Canadians or Brits. Through rude force: no schools, no education on local language, abolish of local traditions, local religions by force etc.

Ekhem, that's what You were doing with Poles, Germans, Tatars, Tchechenians...

Russian have a lot of time for this. Just look on American solution: 1) using technical superiority wipe out Native Americans from their lands,

Past centuries.

2) put them in small reservations.

Which somehow remind me Russian ways in Syberia. It is now mostly
Russians, and autochtons were limitated to small small republics
that we could call reservates.

3) took their lands.

Exactly what You were doing! Especially with Polish landowners.

4) let them die as nation in those preservations

Well, again, in Ukraine and Byelorussia native languages almost died because
of You. They are in fact alive only on the lands that belonged before the war
to Poland...

Russia started its expantion in 16 century,

XV -since the seizure of Nowogród Wielki (your tzar attacked it after it signed
a pact with our king. It tried to save itself from Moscow's tyranny by allying
ith us, but our king somehow didn't try to fix it.)

so until SU collapsed in 1991, Russians have a lot of time to "Rusificate" it's entire territory if they wanted.
As for influece of Russian culture on other cultures within Empire/SU/RF I don't deny it. What do you expected? If f.e. group of people lives in one house through all their lives, sure the sooner or later their traditions will be mixed. The same as for Russia, we lived in one country through centuries and of course Russian culture influenced other cultures,

Especially Mongol...

but Russian culture, Russian language and traditions were under influence of cultures of other nationalities. Russia is the one big mix of nationalities, cultures, religions and traditions.

Perhaps, but Russians didn't start to speak Ukrainian or Byelorussian or Polish,
and Russians flooded the rest of republics, vide Latvia and Estonia.

It isn't a proof, because I don't believe in this. Perhaps you think that Byelorussians should learn some kind of Polish dialect, which you consider as true Byelorussian language.

Yes, Byelorussian of today is heavily rusificated, but even that language isn't commonly known.

But I guess they know their language and learn this langauge in their schools.

No they don't. It's official, it's Byelorussian official poll.
You can read about it everywhere.

Lukashenko in Moscow? Good joke.

No, it's scary

No,perhaps he just don't want to have any deal with someone who have a "small penis complex".

If so, why does he stick to Russia?

With someone who is greedy and anoying.
Small, greedy and anoying- definition of Poland!

Small - Russian economy is smaller than the Dutch because
of the pauverty. greedy- it's Russia that sucks millions of
western dollars and spends them all on vodla libations it seems.
Annoying - no comments...

1) It was not single poll, but many polls with various check and poll done by different services. And no one protest about results of those polls.

No-one but Byelorussian opposition, repressed by the dictator.
You don't seem to notice it. And anyway all medias are in the "president's"
hands. What do You expect?.

2) Russians. It's our internal buissnes. And btw, Byelorussians want it more then we are.

I can believe that. But once that they'll have the union and no-help will come
(and it won't, Russia is too poor to help itself even despite its all natural resources
and extraordinary chances opened before it)

3) Western media portray him as monster becouse he refused to kiss asses from Washington D.C.

No. Because he breaks international treaties by f.e. stealing other countries'
property and occupying their territories (case of embassies), violates the constitution,
bans and kills political oponents, persecutes Polish minority.

4) It's only your wish. They don't care about you. They feel that they are tied with us more then with some one else. We share the commone history with Byelorussia, not you are.

Really? What happended to all Byelorussian history since middle ages to industrial age,
then?

The people of Byelorussia made their choice,

?ukaszenka made. I guess majority of people supports him, so he can do it
despite he occupies president's seat illegally.

so case is closed. You may think whatever you want it will change nothing. Russia and Byelorussia soon will be a one country again. It is the wish of both Russian and Byelorussian people and it worth much more then your wish.

Yes. The mighty Mi?sk-Moscow Empire? Will You be in need to borrow money
to pay for printing of new stamps?

Entomologists?
(Ok, just kidding.)

he he in fact there is a Polish film, popular also in Ukraine, Odessa, where the action takes
place, called "deja vu". It is a bit crazy, but nice. One scenae that I remembered since my childhood
up to the last year when I watched it again was a scene of killing one poor enthomologist by local
mafia. Or were that secret services? It was pretty nice, especially when a guy dressed up in White
Army suit (ran out of a film scenery) enters the city and people think that contrrevolution begins...

Smolensk is one of the first Slavs cities. When it was founded there was no difference between Russians and Byelorussians.

-and Poles and Byelorussians, and Russians and Poles.

-Smolensk is a Lithuanian city

Of course. Polish-Lithuanian-Byelorussian. No place for
Muscuvians.

-Lithuania was forcefully occupied by Russia, not joined the SU. Anyone who claims otherwise doesn't know jack.

-or is a Russian...

-It's VILNIUS, not Wilna

No it isn't Wilna. WilnO
Ah, I try to not hurt your feelings to write Wilno/Vilnius constantly,
sorry if I forgot about it somewhere.

No it's not like Gda?sk;
1)There are almost no germans in it now, while there is still big minority of Poles (3-4 x less than before the war but...) in the city, and Poles are still majority around
why Germans wer never majority in villages surrounding Gda?sk. Additionally, Germans caused the war, and we were victims. Germans still are thinking about getting back what they "lost" by the war, and we are in cordial relationships with Lithuania. I'll call Wilno/Vilnius Wilno,
as that's the Polish name for it and there's no English one,
and as it doesn't indicate that I'm supporting partage of Lithuania, I see no reason to use Lithuanian name for it.
By the way, Saras. Recently we were visited by one Russian politic that urged us to take Wilno/Vilnius back...

[Ecthy]

[Heresson]

Long posts, aren't they!

[Ecthy]

I'm sure you stole it somewhere. That'd be typical for your kind.