Poles burn Jews alive - Nazi's blamed.

[C0ckney]

http://kuhttp.cc.ukans.edu/kansas/cienciala/342/ch2.html

Very long (scroll down to the section on the Russian-Polish war) but some very good stuff.

Andy: from that link

However, the Bolsheviks rejected the Curzon Line, saying they were willing to offer the Poles much more land if they accepted other Soviet terms. The real reason for this rejection was quite different. Russian documents published for the first time in 1992 show that the Bolshevik leaders rejected the Curzon Line and carried on the war against Poland because they believed they had already won the war against the Entente Powers. Therefore, as Lenin put it, they wanted to "taste with bayonets whether the Socialist revolution of the proletariat had not ripened in Poland." Furthermore, they believed that the whole Versailles settlement would collapse with the fall of Poland, and hoped that revolutions would likely break out in Germany and Italy. (10)

[Ecthy]

well, I thought you meant it as in Germany as an aggressive power, as in the Nazis... you didn't post a year either, so... had you said "possible revolutionary Germans", iut would have been clearer.

it's true though, who knows how Europe would have ended if there had been a successful revolution in Germany at that time or maybe also political action from the executive powers that would have been in favour of the communists rather than the nazis. but that's unlikely, Hindenburg was a damned reactionary, so a civil war would have been it... and that one was more than possible in the late 20s.

[chequita guevara]

Cockney, your link shows that Poland attacked Russia first.

[Ecthy]

that's irrelevant, chegitz

chegitz, would you be up to a discussion of possibilities of Germany turning out leftist by the 30s?

[C0ckney]

It also explains why though doesn't it

[Ecthy]

C0ckney, I wrote a longer reply to your post... you were short on detail, so.. .

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by bogi
Hitler started the war because Poland accepted the jews and didnt persecute them. Poland had the largest Jewish Population in europe and they lived there for 600years peacefully. You never see any jews mentioning that do you ?

When we were eventually betrayed and slaughtered, would you expect us to?

[Stefu]

The whole point of the Winter War against FInalnd was to get some breathing room around Leningrad.

The whole point of the Winter War against Finland was to conquer Finland to become a puppet state/Soviet republic.

[C0ckney]

My last post was addressed to che.

Had there been a communist revolution in Germany , I think the western powers might have interveined and crushed it. I could see a civil war, especially as the "Freikorps" (sp?) (who crushed the attempt in 1919) liked communism as much as snowmen do sunshine

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Stefu
The whole point of the Winter War against Finland was to conquer Finland to become a puppet state/Soviet republic.

Considering that they eventually won the war and that you didn't become a Soviet puppet, I don't think that's it. Stalin originally tried to lease the areas from Finland, but was rebuffed.

Cockney, the article seems to lay the fault of the war on Pilsudski, who wanted to recreate greater Poland.

The part about Lenin trying to export the Revolution to Poland is true. Once Poland started the war, Lenin felt they should try and conquer it and spread the Revolution. It's entirely lilely that had Warsaw fallen and Poland become socialist, there would have been a successful German Revolution. The causes of Stalinism would have been abolished long before he could have taken over, and we'd live in a true communist world today. So, I'll forgive the adventurism on Lenin's part once the Poles had been rebuffed.

[chequita guevara]

As for the invention of Western powers in a German revolution, I think it unlikely. They had fought four long hard years of war already, not including the fighting in Russia. The crowds at home were in no mood for a renewed war. More likely they would have faced revolutions of their own.

[Ecthy]

after all they didn't intervene when warmongers came into power

[chequita guevara]

True, but your warmongers were seen as a bulwark against Bolshevism. ANy crime can be tolerated as long as the criminal is anti-communist.

[Stefu]

Considering that they eventually won the war and that you didn't become a Soviet puppet, I don't think that's it. Stalin originally tried to lease the areas from Finland, but was rebuffed.

Soviet victory wasn't a real victory in sense Stalin wanted. Since no real progress was being made and Western powers threatened to intervene in Finland's side, Stalin had to be satisfied in less than he had planned for.

Considering that secret articles of Molotov-Ribbentrop had specified Finland to be part of Soviet sphere, considering that Estonia, Latvonia and Lithuania had suffered occupation after giving in to Soviet demands, considering the elaborate marching plans Soviets had for conquest of entire Finland, considering Terijoki puppet government that Soviets treated as official one and which was planned to take the control of Finland after the conquest, I very much believe that yes, that was exactly it.

As for Stalin's lease attempt, that was probably just Stalin's attempt to bully Finland into more favorable attack position. The leased areas would have crippled Finnish defense. They included strategically important islands in Baltic sea, city of Hanko which was very near Helsinki and, IIRC, parts of Mannerheim line.

Marching guides to Finland. Orders for troops not to stop until the Swedish border. Puppet government. Artillery shots Soviets fired to their own villages and blamed Finns for used as a pretext for war. Let's face it, Winter War was nothing but naked Soviet aggression.

[Heresson]

First of all, I mentioned this case ages ago.
Secondly, it is a reknown fact that there were even 10x less victims then Gross says. You can read it in official texts.
After all, how many people can be forced into one small
farm building? President of Poland apologised not recently but I guess it was over a year ago and he admitted Polish
participance though it was yet not sure.
Monument is old.
It is also reknown that a similar case happended in one or two nearby villages, probably by the same men.
Nothing new. And nothing special.
Poles were killing Poles during this war too, for money
and not only. Jews were killing and humilating Poles under temporary Soviet occupation too. That's the war. Once again I emphasise that Poland was the only country in Europe in which no party wanted to cooperate with Hitler. Once again I say that there was even British army in construction to operate with Nazis, but no Polish. Etc.
Thoughts that Stalin annexed eastern Poland and baltic states to gain land to oppose Hitler on, it is rubbish.
If Poland and Baltic states wouldn't have been destroyed,
Hitler wouldn't be able to attack USSR... And if Stalin
wanted to attack Germany, he didn't want to do it because he was so good, but because he was returning to the thoughts of rules over the world.


"Ecthelion, the non-German purpetrators of Jewish progroms in ocuppied Ukraine weren't Uncle Joe's forces, but rather anti-communist Ukrainian paramilitaries allied with the Nazis."

Is anti-semitism the only bad thing You can do for You?
Ethnical clear-outs on occupied territories (Poles...)
and other stuff...

"FG, alliance is a strong word. (...) they were only taking back what Poland had stolen from them in the war of 1920-21 (Poland attacked the USSR and won)."

Poland was the one to start military action, but only after our secret services gave information about Smole?sk council, on which plans of invading Poland were discussed.
Don't deny. At this time, doctrine of "communism in one state" wasn't yet defined and USSR obvious goal was to "support socialism" where it could. Otherwise, why Soviet gouverment of Poland was formed?
Poland wasn't intervenient. Otherwise, it would have taken its chance to overthrow communism. It didn't.

" The Soviets did committ attrocities there, including the muder of some 10,000+ Polish officers."

Only recently admitting it... And 10000 (though I know
bigger numbers" is more I guess than 100-300 Jews
killed by some greedy peasants.
Note, not only officers were murdered, but all that had
any influence in the society. From veterinaries to reknown
actors. The same did nazis.

"Interestingly, as the Red Army marched across Poalnd, the the people in the areas they conqured rose up against their landlords and bosses, seizing the land and factories. The Red Army was welcomed as liberators, although that view of them soon changed."

Massacres in Grodno of course prooves that.
Poles were ordered not to fight, and anyway, people
weren't aware of what Soviets were to do. My grandma says that when Soviets entered her city, the mayor came out with salt and bred to greet them, as peopel thought they want to help us against the Germans...
Poland was offered many times to fight side by side with fuehrer against SU. It didn't like the idea, was happy with
what it had, and it got Soviet push in the back in return.
Of course, Jews, Ukrainians etc welcomed USSR warmly, but soon most got to know it is worse for them.

"Poland's acceptance of the Jews ended with the 3rd Partition of Poland. When Poland was recreated at the end of WWI, it was hardly the center of European enlightenment it had once been. It quickly became a ferocius dicatorship under Pilsudski, attacked its neighbor the USSR to grab land, and treated its Jews as second class citizens."

I discussed the reasons of disapproval of Polish nationalists to the Jews. Note that they weren't organising pogroms, but boycotts and stuff (though
leader of American Jews told Dmowski that he'd rather
him do a quick pogrom than long boycott )
Again, a quick explenation; some years after the partages
during which jews supported Poland, jews started getting into German/Austrian politics in Austria and Germany.
That was considered a national betrayal and in fact it was.
When it comes to the Russian part, Russia limited Jewish
colonistation area to formerly Polish lands, and so, thousands of Russian Jews called "Litwacy" came to Poland. They didn't speak polish and had no association with Poland and I guess that may have caused antypathy to them. Anyway, it was the time that gentry was loosing
its importance while citizens of the cities, economical enemies of Jews (gentry liked Jews more than urban Poles
as Jews had no political aspiratons that may have worried them) got stronger. Also, Germans and Russians taught us anti-semitism.

"During the occupation, the Poles gleefully participated in the persecution of the Jews, turning them over to the Nazis,"

Some did that -for life or for money- as everywhere. There were Jews turning over their fellowmen too.

"murdering them themselves,"

Two-three villages with who knows 300 people compared to three millions of Jews and 6 mlns of Jews killed by Germans... Are You nuts? Not minding that many jews
thought of themselves as Poles and were Poles,
and that Poles were slaughtered by Germans too.

"working at the death camps,"

Ekhem? The staff were Germans, and self-administration or whatever i can call it in English were mostly Jews...

"stealing Jewish property."

If a Pole was murdered, his property was robbed too...
You don't know anything about conditions in Poland during the war...
Anyway You are so happy that poor Byelorussians were killing and robbing their richer Polish neighbours and I guess You consider that "historical justice". Why don't You consider robbing rich jews by poor Poles/Byelorussians/Ukrainians/all nations a historical justioce too? Think of it as a sign of revolution too.

"Even when they did help the Jews, they did so in such a way as to tqake advantage of them, gouging them for food and taking bribes not to turn them in. "

Some for sure, and I think it's exagerrated. After all, it WAS damn hard for food during the war, and -as someone mentioned here- Poland was the only place where there was death penalty by Germans for hiding Jews, and "the rightfull amongst the people" or how it is in English, they are mostly Poles...

"If they had not done so, he would not have moved West at all."

Doubt that. Time would come for Alsace and Lorraigne.

"The Poles are also considered widely anti-semitic nowadays. You wouldn't find any Pole admitting to mistakes of his people though, they're the biggest nationalists there are in Europe"

Wrong. Personally I believe that the Turks are most nationalistic. Russians are very nationalistic too. Germans
also. Frenchmen too. Ukrainians aren't better. Hungarians - look at mr Jeszenka. Czechs are astonishingly self-centered too...

"In other words, Poland (be)"

USSR offered Poland much more land, but Poland resigned of it "in the name of good relationships" (but also to not
have more than 1/3 of minorities), and paid for it when
USSR started their campaign of "reuniting Byelorussia"
forgetting that Byelorussians had hardly any thought of themselves and that they could give them back Smole?sk at first. What suprises me if that guevara defends USSR.
IT WAS NOT a communistic state. Perhaps they claimed to be, perhaps they at the start tried to be, but they weren't."

"C0ckney, in the war where the Poles were in Belarus and the Ukraine, the Soviets didn't do anything as a stepping stone for the Germans. You're mixing up the years 1920 and 1939"

Cockney is right. As one said; "the way to the world revolution goes through the dead body of Poland"

"Chegitz, by the way I'm not sure if You are aware that
Pilsudzki wasn't nationalist. He was socialist, and his plans towards eastern lands were quite different than it
finally was decided. he wanted to return to multinational conception of I Republic. But incorporation tendencion
won. I see nothing strange in it. Notice; Lithuania wanted their historical lands, with Wilno/Vilnius, though it was
5% Lithuanian, and USSR accepted their right to it. It didn't accept Polish rights to its eastern provinces though they were much more Polish, as it probably wanted to get Ukrainian/Lithuanian support. It was also obvious that it'll
rather support more important for it Germany than Poland
when it comes to its western borders. Poland had to fight.
How USSR treated Poles can be seen in simple comparison; until Stalin got to power, there were 351
Polish school in EASTERN Byelorussia itself. Today, in entire Byelorussia there is one Polish school, built recently
for Polish money."