An Unborn Child is in Fact, Human

[Gibsie]

Originally posted by Ron Jeremy
If it sustains fatal injuries it's going to die whether she accepts the consequences or not.

But even then, someone who sustains really nasty injuries should be at least made comfortable by any medical-people around

[Akka]

Originally posted by November Adam
the reason I limit to zygote is that, given the resources to survive a zygote will continue to develope, a sperm, or an egg will not, it will stay exactly as it is.

You say that a zygote "given the ressources to survive" will develop.
Put a sperm and an egg together, and given the ressources to survive, they will develop into a human.

Even if it was not the case : why do the ability to develop into a human make you consider the zygote as a human ?
Why do the POTENTIAL should give it something it has not for now ?

First the zygote isn't an independent organ, it is an organism. The difference is that an organ is a part of the whole, and an organism is the whole.

A good comparision of a zygote, embryo, fetus, would be that of an astronaut on a space walk or a scuba diver. Not that of a zygote and an organ, as they are two different things entirely.

Point taken.
Now, a sperm is not an organ, it's an organism. So take the same analogy, but with an egg or a sperm.

I put value on the body due to the fact that it is a shell for sentience.

So you admit that the only value of the body is that it's the shell for the sentience.
Hence a body on itself is worthless.

I also think that it is necessary to protect the shell when we know that sentience will be present. We know that sentience will be present as we are in such a rush to terminate prior to that point.

Well, that's the point : destroying the embryo BEFORE it gets the ability to have sentience, because then it would be murder.

You agree that bad is to hurt a person. As the embryo is still not a person, there is nothing bad about destroying it.

[November Adam]

nope, sperm is still only a part of the organism, it is not an organism itself. A zygote is an organism itself.

Akka, a zygote is already together, a sperm and egg are not. That is the difference.

A zygote is a human, have you not been listening to me?

I said that it is also important to protect the shell because it will develope sentience. As in future tense.

Akka the potential we are talking about is a biological certaintity in the same way that an infant will go through puberty.

You do realize this all stems from a convienience factor. If humans developed in a shell are argument may not even exist.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

A human zygote is a human being, but it is just in it's early development stages. Even after birth your body still continues to develop and become more complex as you go from a child to an adult. This process is accelerated during puberty.

Is a human zygote alive? Of course it is! If it weren't alive it wouldn't develop over time. This is because there are instructions called DNA that tell it how grow and develop; without DNA, it wouldn't do anything. DNA is the building blocks of life.

So, in effect, since zygotes are in an earlier human development stage, and they are alive because they develop over time, then taking away that life would be ending human life, which constitutes murder.

Doesn't this disturb anyone?

[Jaakko]

C'mon Cloud, please answer these. Surely you can't advocate banning abortion without weighing all aspects of the matter:

Since you want to make abortion illegal, what should be the proper punishment for doing such a deed?

What should be done with pregnant women who want an abortion regardless of the law forbidding it?

[sparkplug]

What will Cloud9 do about the ''underground abortion market'' that will inevitably be created after the prohibition of abortion?

Surely there are people who would still believe abortion is a woman's right, and they will continue to preform abortions regardless of what the law says. What are you going to do Cloud9, declare a ''War on Abortion''?

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Originally posted by Jaakko
Since you want to make abortion illegal, what should be the proper punishment for doing such a deed?

It's the same thing as first degree murder; same punishment. That's says enough.

What should be done with pregnant women who want an abortion regardless of the law forbidding it?

Rules are rules. People will get used to it over time.

Abortion will encourage responsible sex by getting more people to use contraceptives than ever before; this is because people will not want to risk unwanted pregnancies that can't be undone. They can give up their chilren for adoption, but not without penalty. Possibly a huge one-time fine (to help pay for their care in the orphanage). If they can't pay the fine, then their medical insurance will have to cover it, resulting in an increase in their monthly payments.

Those who are rape victims should still be forced to have their babies, since those babies are still human beings. But when they do, they should have every right to give them up for adoption without penalty.

Women who are pregnant, but have a substantial risk of death or serious injury as a result of pregnancy and/or labor should be allowed to have an abortion, as not having an abortion would be like commiting suicide. This is not to say that since in any pregnancy there is a very slight chance that the mother may die or have serious injury in labor that she may have an abortion if there is no apparent risk of death or serious injury; this, though very unfortunate when it happens, is extremely rare and should be ignored in considering laws against abortion. Just think how many more babies will be saved than the few women who will die.

Incest should be a sex crime, punishable by imprisonment and huge fine. This will deter people from commiting incest. Those who commit incest are at high risk that a possible pregnancy will result in a severly deformed, mentally unstable, or mentally retarded offspring. Deliberately taking this risk is completely unacceptable. Though the resulting offspring may have deficiensies, they are still human beings and must be protected at all costs.

[CyberGnu]

Cloud, are you going to comment on your potential misinterpretation of the bible?

Adam, a question for you: what are you going to do when the first human is cloned? Declare that peeling is murder? All those dead skin cells that are potential human beings being violently scraped off their host!

I honestly don't understand how one can argue that a one cell organism is a human... Sentience is the only logical defining factor.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
I honestly don't understand how one can argue that a one cell organism is a human... Sentience is the only logical defining factor.

Individual cells do not develop organs and become a part of society. They are only a part of us, and simply serve a function to ensure that the human body works the way it should.

edit: BTW, cells are not organisms. An organism is a living thing that has multiple organs, and cells do not have any of these things. They don't have hearts, lungs, ribs, livers, kidneys etc. But when you put millions and millions of similar cells together you have an organ. Cells are the building blocks of organs, and organs are the building blocks of organisms.

[Akka]

Originally posted by November Adam
nope, sperm is still only a part of the organism, it is not an organism itself. A zygote is an organism itself.

Akka, a zygote is already together, a sperm and egg are not. That is the difference.

I don't see why it makes it more a person than any other pack of cell.
I still can't hurt it, because it can't feel pain, pride, pleasure nor anything.
If I can't hurt it, how can I do anything bad with it ?

A zygote is a human, have you not been listening to me?

I have listened. I just happen to disagree. A zygote is not a human because it has no mind. A zygote is just a pack of cell that COULD become a human.

I said that it is also important to protect the shell because it will develope sentience. As in future tense.

Why does its potential gives it any right ?
It's POTENTIAL. It's not a FACT.

Akka the potential we are talking about is a biological certaintity in the same way that an infant will go through puberty.

Yes.
And ?
It's biological certaintity that I'll be dead one day. Then, should I be considered dead right now ?

You do realize this all stems from a convienience factor. If humans developed in a shell are argument may not even exist.

The argument would be the same : "do I have the right to destroy the egg or not ?"

[Mr. Nice Guy]

I must also argue that we really have no control over the death of individual cells in our bodies. There is nothing we can do about this natural process. Though one might argue that deliberately cutting one's self is murder because your killing millions and millions of cells. But this is more like suicide then murder (because you are killing a part of yourself), and should be treated with therapy. Now if one cuts themself for good cause, such as sticking a needle in themselves to draw blood to test their blood sugar, then who cares; individual cells are not as important as an organism as a whole because they do not live in society, they live as a part of us. A woman's unborn child is not a part of her because it has very different DNA and is not dependent on any of her body parts. Sure, the unborn child gets it's food through the umbilical cord, but this is just a temporary method for the child to get it's nutrition until after the child is born and is old enough to eat on it's own.

And about the "killing" of sperm cells, when you gotta go, you gotta go (to the bathroom, that is). You just can't keep all those wastes in your body; it would kill you if you did. Another suicide mission I say.

Women have no control over their periods. This is a natural process and does not constitute murder.

Masturbation is murder? No. Sex is sex and there is nothing wrong with it (as long as it done responsibly and within the confines of marriage according to my religion), though my personal feelings about masturbation is that it is wrong because the Bible speaks against it.

There is not much we can do to protect our own cells, but we can, without a doubt, protect the unborn.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Akka le Vil

Now, a sperm is not an organ, it's an organism. So take the same analogy, but with an egg or a sperm.

It is not!! Find for me one professional biologist who would agree with that statement!

An organism is an intact autonomous living entity which has the ability to consume energy and reproduce within the proper environment. Sperm do not reproduce, they are part of an organism's reproductive system. They can in fact be considered part of an organ, in the same manner that a nerve cell is not the brain, but it certainly is part of it.

An embryo is part of which organ? Whose organ is it part of?


Unfertilized eggs die at the end of the menestrual cycle. Sperm also die after a period of time.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Good insight Dr. Strangelove!

[November Adam]

Man I feel some of you are being thick to play with my head.

Are you forgetting basic biology?

The mind does not determine whether you are a member of a species. Your DNA does. quit being so thick.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Originally posted by November Adam
Man I feel some of you are being thick to play with my head.

Are you forgetting basic biology?

The mind does not determine whether you are a member of a species. Your DNA does. quit being so thick.

Where are you coming from November?