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Originally posted by Jon Miller
you are being illogical and close minded
you are not worthwhile talking to in this matter
goodbye
Jon Miller
That's exactly what I would do, Jon.
HAVE A DAY.
<--- Quote by Former U.S. President Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
"And there will be strange events in the skies--signs in the sun, moon, and stars. And down here on earth the nations will be in turmoil, perplexed by the roaring seas and strange tides. The courage of many people will falter because of the fearful fate they see coming upon the earth, because the stability of the very heavens will be broken up. Then everyone will see the Son of Man arrive on the clouds with power and great glory. So when all these things begin to happen, stand straight and look up, for your salvation is near!" --Luke 21:25-28
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever. --1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
Regardless of all the controvesary about wether or not an unborn child is human, I think that my argument that abolishing abortion to be used as a means to deter the spread of STD's is a strong one, and thus justifies the abolition of abortion.
See my previous posts in this thread for more information.
HAVE A DAY.
<--- Quote by Former U.S. President Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
"And there will be strange events in the skies--signs in the sun, moon, and stars. And down here on earth the nations will be in turmoil, perplexed by the roaring seas and strange tides. The courage of many people will falter because of the fearful fate they see coming upon the earth, because the stability of the very heavens will be broken up. Then everyone will see the Son of Man arrive on the clouds with power and great glory. So when all these things begin to happen, stand straight and look up, for your salvation is near!" --Luke 21:25-28
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever. --1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
Originally posted by Sava
that's the dumbest thing I've heard on this page of the thread cloud9... "abolishing abortion is a deterrent against STD's" ...
Did you even read my previous posts? I'm not going to go through this arguement all over again.
HAVE A DAY.
<--- Quote by Former U.S. President Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
"And there will be strange events in the skies--signs in the sun, moon, and stars. And down here on earth the nations will be in turmoil, perplexed by the roaring seas and strange tides. The courage of many people will falter because of the fearful fate they see coming upon the earth, because the stability of the very heavens will be broken up. Then everyone will see the Son of Man arrive on the clouds with power and great glory. So when all these things begin to happen, stand straight and look up, for your salvation is near!" --Luke 21:25-28
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever. --1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
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"Spirit merges with matter to sanctify the universe. Matter transcends to return to spirit. The interchangeability of matter and spirit means the starlit magic of the outermost life of our universe becomes the soul-light magic of the innermost life of our self." - Dennis Kucinich, candidate for the U. S. presidency
"That’s the future of the Democratic Party: providing Republicans with a number of cute (but not that bright) comfort women." - Adam Yoshida, Canada's gift to the world
this is killing independent beings at the least (which many claim not to be people or beings worth protecting)
Jon Miller
Jon Miller- I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
the pro-abortion side seems to have nothing but strawmen to go against the pro-life arguments
I really thought you all had better arguments than this
Jon Miller
Jon Miller- I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
this is killing independent beings at the least (which many claim not to be people or beings worth protecting)
Jon Miller
You still have to prove that an embryo is an independant person (I'm not talking about the third picture with a near full-term baby, THAT is not the kind of abortion I support).
I'm still waiting ANYONE to disprove any of the arguments I made in my first post.
But it seems that as usual, pro-lifers choose to avoid issues when they simply can't deal with them.
Science without conscience is the doom of the soul.
repost them (and note that some points will need developement)
Jon Miller
Jon Miller- I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
this is killing independent beings at the least (which many claim not to be people or beings worth protecting)
The point here is that showing gruesome abortion pictures doesn't actually prove anything. Even if aborted fetuses look like babies, it doesn't prove that they're persons - all that showing pictures achieves is shock effect. Similarly, if I'd show picture about heart surgery to person unaware of what heart surgery is and tell him I'd like to ban people from cutting up other people like this, he's be revulsed and might agree with me. Nothin' but baiting for emotional reaction.
Apt comparison are the slaughterhouse pictures or live cow slaughterings PETA and other animal nuts use. Have one of your regular pro-lifers who thinks PETA is a bunch of loonies taking his or her family to Burger King, have one of PETA's displays outside, and a likely reaction is anger at how those radical nutcases are trying to ruin his family's day with their gruesome display.
"Spirit merges with matter to sanctify the universe. Matter transcends to return to spirit. The interchangeability of matter and spirit means the starlit magic of the outermost life of our universe becomes the soul-light magic of the innermost life of our self." - Dennis Kucinich, candidate for the U. S. presidency
"That’s the future of the Democratic Party: providing Republicans with a number of cute (but not that bright) comfort women." - Adam Yoshida, Canada's gift to the world
Originally posted by Jon Miller
we have been sidetracked arguing with others
repost them (and note that some points will need developement)
Jon Miller
Here they are :
Let's see. Why abortion could be considered bad ? Because it would kill a person. Hence we have two possibilities :
1) the embryo is a person.
2) the embryo is not a person.
What define a person ? Some argued that it's the DNA. It's absurd. My skin cells have DNA, it does not make each of them a person. Some people have chromosomic anomalies (3 chromosoms 21) and they are still considered a person, though they do not share the same DNA as most humans. Twins have the same DNA and are still considered two persons.
So what make someone a disctinct person ?
Obviously, it' the mind. A sentient alien should be considered a distinct person as much as a twin.
So it's not ending LIFE which is bad (after all, when I'm cutting my hand, I kill it, and nobody think that I should be punished). What is bad is to destroy a MIND.
Has the embryo a mind ?
Well, for that we need to see WHERE the mind is located. This is very easy with simple observation : there is ample examples of men who lost their arms, their legs, their nose, well ANY part of their body, and stayed the same person.
Though, ANY damage on the brain bring changes on the personnality and mental abilities.
It's also impossible to replace the brain, while prothesis are available for about anything else.
Hence, the mind is located in the brain.
Has the embryo a brain ?
It has, after a while, a nervous system. Though, the brain does not start to appear before the 10-12 th week. After that, the embryo is no more an embryo, but a fetus.
Hence the answer : NO the embryo is not a person. Hence, there is nothing bad in abortion up to the 10th or 12th week, as you don't destroy a mind.
Science without conscience is the doom of the soul.
Let's see. Why abortion could be considered bad ? Because it would kill a person. Hence we have two possibilities :
1) the embryo is a person.
2) the embryo is not a person.
What define a person ? Some argued that it's the DNA. It's absurd. My skin cells have DNA, it does not make each of them a person. Some people have chromosomic anomalies (3 chromosoms 21) and they are still considered a person, though they do not share the same DNA as most humans. Twins have the same DNA and are still considered two persons.
So what make someone a disctinct person ?
Obviously, it' the mind. A sentient alien should be considered a distinct person as much as a twin.
So it's not ending LIFE which is bad (after all, when I'm cutting my hand, I kill it, and nobody think that I should be punished). What is bad is to destroy a MIND.
Has the embryo a mind ?
Well, for that we need to see WHERE the mind is located. This is very easy with simple observation : there is ample examples of men who lost their arms, their legs, their nose, well ANY part of their body, and stayed the same person.
Though, ANY damage on the brain bring changes on the personnality and mental abilities.
It's also impossible to replace the brain, while prothesis are available for about anything else.
Hence, the mind is located in the brain.
Has the embryo a brain ?
It has, after a while, a nervous system. Though, the brain does not start to appear before the 10-12 th week. After that, the embryo is no more an embryo, but a fetus.
Hence the answer : NO the embryo is not a person. Hence, there is nothing bad in abortion up to the 10th or 12th week, as you don't destroy a mind.
ahh
see you will at least give a decent argument
(and I would feel a lot better with your requirements for abortion than the current ones, I think the current ones are without a doubtr murder while yours it would be questionable)
I would guess that the completely anti all abortion side would have the requirements to be human as
having human DNA and being a recognizable human in the future
I beleive that there is reason to argue between your position and the anti-abortion position (and it isn't as clear as other positions)
Jon Miller
Jon Miller- I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
aren't you disturbed by all the murder that is being done?
Jon Miller
Jon Miller- I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
the pro-abortion side seems to have nothing but strawmen to go against the pro-life arguments
I really thought you all had better arguments than this
Jon Miller
You know, Jon. Perhaps we should try a different strategy here. Since the pro-choicers around here are simply not gonna listen to us and keep repeating things over and over and over again when we've already proved that an embryo is human, why don't we stick to my argument that passing anti-abortion laws can actually promote responsible sex and slow the spread of STD's?
edit: Let's discuss the advantages and disadvantages of anti-abortion laws. Let's discuss how the advantages of anti-abortion laws outweigh the disadvantages.
HAVE A DAY.
<--- Quote by Former U.S. President Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
"And there will be strange events in the skies--signs in the sun, moon, and stars. And down here on earth the nations will be in turmoil, perplexed by the roaring seas and strange tides. The courage of many people will falter because of the fearful fate they see coming upon the earth, because the stability of the very heavens will be broken up. Then everyone will see the Son of Man arrive on the clouds with power and great glory. So when all these things begin to happen, stand straight and look up, for your salvation is near!" --Luke 21:25-28
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever. --1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
I guess we shouldn't have seen pictures of Nazi victims either. Too shocking I guess... It is probably better just to keep repeating numbers when someone is killed. Let's see "twenty murders were committed in Detroit last month, oh hum, what's for dinner tonight honey?"
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