Rugby!

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
Hi,

In the SH the number 9 is introducing the ball into the scrum, the ball is generally quickly played out. When I write the scrum are undisputed, I mean that many SH teams are not trying to push powerfully in order to win the ball (at least this is what I perceive). Of course, and thankfully, this is not the case for the mauls.

I see what you are getting at now. You are referring to the fact that its unusual for the team that isnt feeding the ball into the scrum to win it in the scrum. I am happy with this because a scrum is usually the result of a knock-on or some other handling error. I think the team that made the error should lose the advantage whether they have a good scrum or not.

In France, the scrums are used by powerful packs to earn an advantage, recover some balls and wear out the other players. I don't think this is anymore the case in the SH.

I have seen it happen a couple of times, but I admit it isnt the norm.

There are no different rules per se in the SH of course but huge differences in interpretation. I find the SH referees are too lenient :

We in the SH feel that NH refs are too strict. We like to see a game that is allowed to flow more than a game with rules that are rigorously enforced.

- Violent entry into a scrum : almost never whistled in the SH,
- Entering by the side of the scrum : not often signaled in the SH,
- Diving over the scrum : is there any rule against that in the SH...

Im a bit confused here, are you referring to the ruck?

[Tamerlin]

You're right Cagilasta, SH games are more fluid and it's mainly because the referees are more tolerant and also because the SH players are more respectful of the said referees (something some french players and spectators should learn from).

But I think the SH referees are too lenient, there should be a middle ground between the SH way of refereeing and the NH way. This is sometimes the case when a NH team meets a SH team. A mix of the two refereeing styles allied to the opposition of the NH and SH way of playing has often produced some of the most entertaining rugby I have ever seen.

My only critcism is that the nature of the game is changing because of the excess of this tolerance. I admit many european referees (as Derek Bevan and Didier Méné) should understand the rules are here for the ball to live. Something your referees have perfectly understood.

My writings about the scrum at the end of my previous post are not related to the ruck, I'am rather talking about the behaviour of the players around the spontaneous mauls (I shouldn't have used the word scrum, sorry )

About the scrum (this is the good word this time) and the push : some scrums are crumbled by the players in France, but this is far from the rule. The guilty players are sanctionned and some yellow cards are distributed.

Most of the scrum are really "fighted" by the first lines and when a handling error is made, this is often because one side have rightfully overpowered its opponents. The most spectacular scrums are often seen in the second half when the work of the ascending pack is paying its toll. This way of playing makes for a very different rugby, the scrum becomes a powerful part of a devastating attack to come from the wing. The scrum itself is an important part of strategy in the french rugby and to a lesser extent in the british one.

Actually, I'am dreaming of a Rugby inspired by the best of the Southern and Northern hemispheres, a kind of fusion.

See you soon...

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak


Well the Super 12 is an okay competition of course. I can't help but feel you miss something not having a national tournament though.

The Super 12 comp's what it is - an international comp for developed talent. It's the grassroots comp that we need. In fact, it's fairly amazing that Australian rugby has done as well as it has based on the narrow base it is. There has been talk over the years of putting some sort of national league into place - well, make that NSW clubs -v- Queensland clubs - but it has never come to fruition. Finance is the argument that usually kills it. And the fact that the various state administrators can't even agree what century it is doesn't help.

[Tamerlin]

Sorry Caligastia I have awfully mispelled your name in my previous post.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin

About Joe Roff : the fact he is one of the best player in the world is not to be discussed. But, I've not seen him at his best in France. I've followed the whole french championship (as usual) and went to the stadium everytime a match was played in Toulouse (LdiCesare : j'étais à Montpellier, sniff ! ). Joe Roff has played like a good (and certainly not best) level french championship player, no more, no less.

Obviously I haven't seen Joe Roff playing in France, but I think his style of play - developed over years with the Brumbies and Wallabies - probably didn't immediately fit the European style. Of course he could change his style - adapt - but that takes a little while. There is another factor, too. Joe, while a very fine player, is very, very arrogant. Maybe that had something to do with it, too.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
Hi,

In the SH the number 9 is introducing the ball into the scrum, the ball is generally quickly played out. When I write the scrum are undisputed, I mean that many SH teams are not trying to push powerfully in order to win the ball (at least this is what I perceive). Of course, and thankfully, this is not the case for the mauls.

Yes, there is an identifiable difference between NH and SH scrums. In the SH, when they have the feed, the scrum is used as more of a springboard for moving the ball elsewhere. It's a different style brought about as much as anything, I think, by the sheer lack of size of our props. It's a very long time since there was a SH front row of mammoth proportions. So, rather than fight a battle you're likely to lose, different methods were used. These days, we look for props who are mobile and - fingers crossed - with ball skills.

There are no different rules per se in the SH of course but huge differences in interpretation. I find the SH referees are too lenient :

- Rucking : almost always sanctionned in France (except when the referee is looking elsewhere), the only player which can do some rucking is the half-scrum and only in order to recover the ball.
- Violent entry into a scrum : almost never whistled in the SH,
- Entering by the side of the scrum : not often signaled in the SH,
- Diving over the scrum : is there any rule against that in the SH...

I know you've said you didn't mean the scrum. But I have to disagree with your points.

- Rucking is allowed in the SH. Anyone can ruck. You see it a lot. What's not allowed is "stomping". There's obviously a difference. As Brumbie and Wallaby Owen Finnegan discovered when he was suspended for "stomping" on an opponent's head when the ball was nowhere near.
- Violent entry is also penalised. It happened a number of times this season.
- Entering from the side is also penalised. It happened in every game this season. In fact, it was probably the most common penalty.
- Diving over is also penalised. Again, it happened a lot.

Obviously, a referee will sometimes miss things, but, for the most part, these things are policed. Our British friend, Havk, says that SH players are often off-side at the breakdown, but I don't think they are as often as he likes to think.

[Havak]

Well given I think it's 99% of the time it probably couldn't be quite that often.

Welcome to our French posters, great to see you join the discussion, and some fantastic points. I don't have time to do all of them justice but I did find Tamerlins idea of the Fusion interesting - I very much think the north has as much to offer the south as the other way around - but the SH Unions (okay I mean mainly O'Neil) like to project that this simply isn't the case?

One thing made me laugh though

the SH players are more respectful of the said referees

No I don't think so - I can't speak for French sides but English teams are massively respectful to referees becuase if you aren't you will be penalised.

But listen to the Wallabies in the tri-nations, it's like 15 lawyers barracking a judge for 80 minutes.

Compare Johnson and Gregan for the way they speak to referees - Martin never concedes penalties for whining (for cracking skulls sure, but not backchat).

(OK it was quite a few decades ago).

It is a long time ago. but it was a mistake. We made a lot of mistakes whilst trying to cling onto an archaic amateur ethos, and punishing the French for being too Professional was silly in the extreme - I apologise on behalf of my country.

"Stade Toulousain"

Fantastic to see a Toulouse fan here - Tigers have had some great tussles with you over the years, the semi-final in 96-97 being one of the best club games I have ever seen.

Tigers have drawn Beziers in next years competition, how do they rank alongside Stade Toulousain?

And to Finbar/Caligastia guys I've had to skim read before a meeting so if i have missed anything pick me up on it please as I couldn't do so many posts justice - but I would pick this up

with ball skills.

What like Foley had?

You know I found myself nodding at all Tamerlin's points about the differences between hemispheres (especially the too-loose refs down there) so I guess that proves there really is a different mind set between north and south if An Englishman and Frenchman are agreeing.

[LDiCesare]

Tigers have drawn Beziers in next years competition, how do they rank alongside Stade Toulousain?

To be blunt, they are weaker (and I am not toulousain, so I believe I'm fair).
They have a few strong players but they do not have the same collective the Stade (or Agen or Biarritz) has. Their season was a relative disappointment as they didn't make it to half finals. I am not sure which players stay there and which will leave next season though.

[Havak]

Thank you LDiCesare. I had heard they are only in the Heinekin cup at all because of the trouble Agen got into not trying hard enough against Ebbw Vale???

I am hoping to make the game in Beziers as well as Tigers home game.

What is your team if you do not mind me asking? I hope it isn't Stade Francais after we beat them in last years final.

[finbar]

Good grief! Havak has finally found someone to talk NH rugby with! We'll never hear the end of it!

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
so I guess that proves there really is a different mind set between north and south if An Englishman and Frenchman are agreeing.

Nuh. Just goes to prove two can be as wrong as one.

[Havak]

We'll never hear the end of it!

You can bet on that!

Just goes to prove two can be as wrong as one.

You know it's funny but that same thought has occurred to me several times whilst exchanging views with you SH lads.

I've been researching my away trip to Beziers - Gulf of Lion and not far from Spain as well - should be a nice trip all right.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
Sorry Caligastia I have awfully mispelled your name in my previous post.

No worries, Im used to it.



I think Tamerlin has a good point about the fusion of NH and SH styles. I think it would be best for all concerned if we could take the best of what the two styles have to offer and create a more comprehensive international standard. That way the NH sides will have less to complain about when we beat them

So which area of the opposite hemishere's style would you most like to see in your hemisphere's style guys?

[Havak]

Well the chief part of SH style I would like to see us adopt is...winning the Webb Ellis trophy.

[Caligastia]