Rugby!

[LDiCesare]

My favourite team would be Pau, and then Biarritz (I spent some time in Pau and some good time in the pays basque - I remember the final they lost 10 years ago and am glad they made it this year). There is hardly any good rugby team where I come from (I am from North Eastern France, I got both directions wrong).
Beziers is a nice place. If you can spend some time around, it is pretty inlands and there is the sea also. The Stade de la Mediterranee is great. I even played there once, and, well, it is really a beautiful stadium. Nowadays I am more accustomed to playing on fields where grass is something that is supposed to grow where the wingers wait for a ball that never comes, and spectators are limited to one player's girlfriend, two wounded players and a coach...

[Tamerlin]

This thread is very time consuming but very interesting.

Thank you LDiCesare, I would not have answered better. And yes Beziers is qualified for the Heineken Cup because Agen can't participate. It seems Beziers will suffer from a lack of sponsors for the season to come, not good for the future of the ASBH (Association Sportive Béziers Hérault).

About the best team in France, I can't answer anything else except the "Stade Toulousain", I admit this choice has more to do with the heart though.

Thank you Havak, I thought the help would come from France and especially from LDiCesare, I 'am glad an Englishmen, moreover fan of the venerable Leicester Tigers has came to help me (I remember the match you are writing about, it has been played in England, a difficult Transformation - almost near the border of the field - kicked by Stéphane Ougiers gave us the victory by one point at the last second... exhausting !)

If you ever come in Toulouse, I would be happy to offer you a beer at the "Frog and Rosbiff", a pub where british citizens and frenchmen gather peacefully to have a drink and have fun. There are even special afternoons each Six Nations Tournament.

One good point again for Havaq, it's true the British players are among the most respectful of a referee's decision, even if some players have perpetrated some bad acts in the past (I think France has its own bad boys, Olivier Magne won't contradict me, as all the SH teams..., there are even some "killers" in South Africa).

When I wrote the SH players are more respectful of the referee, I didn't meant at all they were "Angels". Most of the time, the SH players get up quickly and go back ten yards as quickly. In this case, their respect of the decision makes for a more fluid game.
In most of the cases of course, sometimes the SH players can be very nervous, as in the NH.

I don' have more time to spend with you tonight, it was a very busy day.

For Caligastia though :

One think I would like to see in the NH is the bonus point for three tries and the bonus point for a game lost by less than 5 points (I'am not sure of the exact number).

In the SH, I would like more disputed scrums...


More tomorrow...

And yes Havaq, I think the SH players are often offside... what is the referee doing ?

[finbar]

Frankly, Caligastia, I'm not sure what I'd like to take from the NH and add to the SH on the basis that, these days, the difference isn't as marked as it once was. From my (admittedly limited) observation, NH rugby is a lot more athletic than it was. Their forwards are, for the most part, more mobile and skilled than they once were, and the halves seem to kick less relentlessly than they once did. I suppose, if anything, I'd borrow their use of the pack - as referred to by Tamerlin. It's a fascinating part of rugby as long as it doesn't dominate. At which point it becomes, IMHO, a less interesting game.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
This thread is very time consuming but very interesting.

It has become more interesting and time-consuming with the extra input from the fresh contributors! I also can't think of a nicer way to spend the day than nattering about rugby.

BTW, Wendell Sailor is starting on the wing for the Wallabies -v- The Maori XV. He's there by default - if either Ben Tune or Scott Staniforth were fit, he'd be on the bench. Matt Rogers is on the bench but will join the game either at 5/8 or inside centre. It's very much another trial game. Daniel Herbert's playing out of position at inside centre to allow Matt Burke to slot into #13 and Sterling Mortlock's on the wing. I suspect Dan Herbert's days are numbered.

Oh, and apparently the Brumbies' Graeme Bond is off to join English club Sale. He's quick, very strong and talented either on the wing or in the centres. He should do well.

[Havak]

My flippant reply to Caligastia was of course because I was under time pressure but it was heart felt all the same

Finbar, as so often, put his finger on it. The gap is much more narrow than it once was. I feel Northern forwards may have the edge now their fitness matches the SH lads, but as I have remarked before our half backs and backs don't link as effectively as either of the big two (can we agree both England and France have cruised past RSA?).

I can assure you Finbar with the latest laws the
forwards don't dominate games up here in the way you fear - the scrum and maul law changes of the last decade have ensured that (remember the days when scrums could roll the length of the pitch over a five minute span?).

I have to say though I think Northern forwards have understood far more clearly the heritage of the code - which is competition for the ball. It sets us apart
from League, a code I know you have no time for, so it surprises me to see you talking about your fear of forwards dominating the game - Union is all about
forwards winning quality possession to be exploited by the backs so let me throw this one back at you - by curtailing the forward game I feel SH teams often risk pushing us towards a League style of uncontested possession that puts me right off at times.

And as Caligastia hinted unless we get an amalgam of hemispehere styles the future of the game is rocky - I can certainly see a point at which the Home Unions (and France) might refuse to play John O'Neil Rugby football.

Am I trolling? Maybe a little...

I really feel for LDiCesare - it must be awful for a Rugby fan to be trapped in NE France, possibly almost as bad as being a cricket fan in England? Pau and Biarritz are both class sides, I know we have had some real classic games with the former (we have never drawn Biarritz, whihc is a good thing probably!)

Nowadays I am more accustomed to playing on fields where grass is something that is supposed to grow where the wingers wait for a ball that never comes, and spectators are limited to one player's girlfriend, two wounded players and a coach...

I know this feeling very well!

If Beziers are as weak as seems to be being suggested they may have a terrible time in their pool. I don't need to point out that Tigers are as stiff a test as can be had in Europe but Neath are called the Welsh All Blacks (after their kit and playing style) and Calvisano are
surprisingly dogged for an Italian club side (they have a Kiwi coach of course).

Stéphane Ougiers gave us the victory by one point at the last
second... exhausting !)

Ah you are actually remembering the next game between us in the Pool roundin 97-98. It was indeed an awesome kick but to be fair, the way you played
that day you were worthy winners.

I was referring to the semi-final of 10 months earlier where Neil Back and Steve Hackney linked to burst through your centres in our 22 and run the length of
the pitch for the killing try. Thuis was the semi before we went on the lose to Brive in the final.

Brive are no longer in your top league I understand?

If you ever come in Toulouse, I would be happy to offer you a beer at the "Frog and Rosbiff", a pub where british citizens and frenchmen gather
peacefully to have a drink and have fun.

I'll raise a glass to that!

My thanks, I will definitely take you up on that should we meet Stade Toulousain at any stage.

Most of the time, the SH players get up quickly and go back ten yards as quickly. In this case, their respect of the decision makes for a more fluid game.

Hmm interesting - possibly they are marginally better at retreating from penalties but SH teams are appalling at at getting back onside at rucks for example, and of course the All Blacks pioneered (and Wallabies perfected) the stroll back with arms in the air "I'm-not-interfering-with-play-ref-honest" to interfere with opposition ball.

Respect is such a broad term I suppose - and all teams play the officials in certain ways?

One think I would like to see in the NH is the bonus point for three tries and the bonus point for a game lost by less than 5 points (I'am not sure of the exact number).

The English League has this for Four tries and losses of seven points or less. It is a SH idea that works really well I have to admit.

I think the SH players are often offside... what is the referee doing

In the SH referees are noramlly doing exactly what the ARU tells them to eh Finbar? I wonder why the NZ union puts up with it. Oh hold on they don't
anymore do they - you threw them out.

The Aus-Maori game is on live here Saturday morning - hope I get up in time. The wales-SA game and NZ-italy game are also on Sky Sports - it could be a long day for me (I am supposed however to be in the pub mid-day to watch England in the soccer *spit* world cup).

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
One think I would like to see in the NH is the bonus point for three tries and the bonus point for a game lost by less than 5 points (I'am not sure of the exact number).

Actually, its a bonus point for 4 tries, and a bonus point for a game lost by 7 points. Thats only in the Super12 though, which european competition would you like to see that implimented in? The Heineken Cup?

Havak brought up an interesting point awhile back about how in the super12 you can win every game except the final and lose the competition because of that one loss. Apparently in european competitions the winner is the one who is at the top of the table at the end of the competition with no semi-finals or finals. Which way do you think it should be Tamerlin and LiDeCesare? Did you voice your opinion on that one yet Finbar? I myself am undecided.

[Havak]

Didn't Biarritz become French Champions by winning some kind of Super 12 type play off last weekend?

It's a very subjective thing but when I raised the issue I did point out the English mind-set is very much that the consistently best team (i.e. top of the League at season end) should be champions.

In our league the Play off competition is incidental and the 3rd and 8th placed teams contested a final the big boys simply were not interested in. That the eighth placed team could have won it undermines the whole play off conept for me, as anything other than a money spinner anyway.

I would be interested if either Finbar or yourself Caligastia really think ACT would have been deserving champions given Canterbury's utter dominance of the league stage?

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Havak
I have to say though I think Northern forwards have understood far more clearly the heritage of the code - which is competition for the ball. It sets us apart
from League, a code I know you have no time for, so it surprises me to see you talking about your fear of forwards dominating the game - Union is all about
forwards winning quality possession to be exploited by the backs so let me throw this one back at you - by curtailing the forward game I feel SH teams often risk pushing us towards a League style of uncontested possession that puts me right off at times.

I honestly dont think the difference between league and union is simply down to the forwards. Neither do I think SH forwards are lacking in winning quality possesion and dominating the game. Just look at George Smith and Chris Jack, they are two shining examples of dominant forwards. George Smith in particular is a master of winning ball at the breakdown. Players like him are one of the Brumbies and Wallabies major strengths. And Chris Jack has a bright future ahead of him in the All Blacks.

I feel that if there is any curtailing of the forward game, its in the NH. I say this because it seems that when you talk of the forwards "dominating" the game, you want to see more play in general from them. If the game is all forwards bashing skulls, then it can get boring as there is less movement. Just as a game can get boring if its nothing but backs scoring easy tries. The SH has a good balance of the two at the moment IMO.

And as Caligastia hinted unless we get an amalgam of hemispehere styles the future of the game is rocky - I can certainly see a point at which the Home Unions (and France) might refuse to play John O'Neil Rugby football.

I cant. Theres no way SH sides would want to stop touring the NH, and although they often lose crucial games, english rugby fans are eternal optimists.

Am I trolling? Maybe a little...

Ha!

Hmm interesting - possibly they are marginally better at retreating from penalties but SH teams are appalling at at getting back onside at rucks for example, and of course the All Blacks pioneered (and Wallabies perfected) the stroll back with arms in the air "I'm-not-interfering-with-play-ref-honest" to interfere with opposition ball.

This has been curtailed recently. Halfbacks tend to throw the ball into opposition players who are offside in order to get a penalty.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
I feel Northern forwards may have the edge now their fitness matches the SH lads

They also have a heritage our forwards don't.

I can assure you Finbar with the latest laws the
forwards don't dominate games up here in the way you fear - the scrum and maul law changes of the last decade have ensured that (remember the days when scrums could roll the length of the pitch over a five minute span?).

Mmmm. Well, yes. Once a month was enough. But a rolling maul is a different thing altogether.

I have to say though I think Northern forwards have understood far more clearly the heritage of the code - which is competition for the ball. It sets us apart
from League, a code I know you have no time for, so it surprises me to see you talking about your fear of forwards dominating the game - Union is all about
forwards winning quality possession to be exploited by the backs so let me throw this one back at you - by curtailing the forward game I feel SH teams often risk pushing us towards a League style of uncontested possession that puts me right off at times.

Sorry, Havak, but I tried to make this point in response to Tamerlin - I couldn't disagree more about this lack of contest in the SH. And I assume we're talking about the same thing. I've seen some mighty scrum battles. AB-Wallaby scrum battles have been legendary over the years. I don't have one ounce of fear that SH rugby is turning into League. Over the years, the fundamental difference between the hemispheres, IMHO, was what happened to the ball after it left the scrum. And that, now, is where the hemispheres are coming together.

I really feel for LDiCesare - it must be awful for a Rugby fan to be trapped in NE France, possibly almost as bad as being a cricket fan in England? Pau and Biarritz are both class sides, I know we have had some real classic games with the former (we have never drawn Biarritz, whihc is a good thing probably!)

I must've misread him. I thought he originated in the NE.

Hmm interesting - possibly they are marginally better at retreating from penalties but SH teams are appalling at at getting back onside at rucks for example, and of course the All Blacks pioneered (and Wallabies perfected) the stroll back with arms in the air "I'm-not-interfering-with-play-ref-honest" to interfere with opposition ball.

The Lions obviously learned at their masters' knees.

The Aus-Maori game is on live here Saturday morning - hope I get up in time.

I can't wait to see if Matt Rogers can produce under real pressure.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Havak
It's a very subjective thing but when I raised the issue I did point out the English mind-set is very much that the consistently best team (i.e. top of the League at season end) should be champions.

I think this is a valid point.

I would be interested if either Finbar or yourself Caligastia really think ACT would have been deserving champions given Canterbury's utter dominance of the league stage?

I dont think they would have been, but then again, Im not exactly unbiased.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia

Havak brought up an interesting point awhile back about how in the super12 you can win every game except the final and lose the competition because of that one loss. Apparently in european competitions the winner is the one who is at the top of the table at the end of the competition with no semi-finals or finals. Which way do you think it should be Tamerlin and LiDeCesare? Did you voice your opinion on that one yet Finbar? I myself am undecided.

The bottom line's pretty simple, Caligastia. M-O-N-E-Y! That's why, for example, the Australian Football League increased the size of their Final Four; first, to a Final Six; second, to a Final Eight. Finals matches are very big earners. I don't have strong feelings either way on the matter. I probably lean to the finals system for the simple reason that you're seeing the top teams battling each other. Okay, they've played a couple of times during the season - let's watch 'em go at it again!

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia


I honestly dont think the difference between league and union is simply down to the forwards. Neither do I think SH forwards are lacking in winning quality possesion and dominating the game. Just look at George Smith and Chris Jack, they are two shining examples of dominant forwards. George Smith in particular is a master of winning ball at the breakdown. Players like him are one of the Brumbies and Wallabies major strengths. And Chris Jack has a bright future ahead of him in the All Blacks.

Couldn't agree more.

I feel that if there is any curtailing of the forward game, its in the NH. I say this because it seems that when you talk of the forwards "dominating" the game, you want to see more play in general from them. If the game is all forwards bashing skulls, then it can get boring as there is less movement. Just as a game can get boring if its nothing but backs scoring easy tries. The SH has a good balance of the two at the moment IMO.

Ditto.

And now I have to go to bed! It's 1 am! Nighty-night all.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar


The bottom line's pretty simple, Caligastia. M-O-N-E-Y! That's why, for example, the Australian Football League increased the size of their Final Four; first, to a Final Six; second, to a Final Eight. Finals matches are very big earners. I don't have strong feelings either way on the matter. I probably lean to the finals system for the simple reason that you're seeing the top teams battling each other. Okay, they've played a couple of times during the season - let's watch 'em go at it again!

Yeah, I do like finals matches. It probably more fair not to have them, but it wouldnt be as entertaining.

[Havak]

Yeah, I do like finals matches. It probably more fair not to have them, but it wouldnt be as entertaining.

No argument to that - but we have two cup competitions here that serve the same purpose. The play offs therefore are something of a joke. We need to sort it out really.

Yeah, I do like finals matches. It probably more fair not to have them, but it wouldnt be as entertaining.

Now that is smart

and although they often lose crucial games, english rugby fans are eternal optimists

We have to be. It has to get better some day, surely?

George Smith in particular is a master of winning ball at the breakdown. Players like him are one of the Brumbies and Wallabies major strengths. And Chris Jack has a bright future ahead of him in the All Blacks.

And it doesn't worry you at all that neither man would currently get in the England 22? Neil back is the master that Smith aspires to be and Lewis Moody is certainly more dynamic than Smith and almost a lunatic in the way he commits himself. Jack I need to see more of to be sure but as I have said before I have heard great things about him.

If the game is all forwards bashing skulls, then it can get boring as there is less movement

Not what I meant, honest

I mean the type of athletic performance witnessed at twickenham in November where the front five were joinign the flankers and moving all around the park hitting the oppostion hard and starving them of ball. England suffocated the Australian pack that day but it didn't lack movement and it wasn't boring - but yeah I'm biased.

But I accept we will not be the man until we beat the man - in his own back yard. That means Aus and NZ - but the day is coming...(please god?)

The Lions obviously learned at their masters' knees.

Much good it did us.

But a rolling maul is a different thing altogether.

Oh yes, it's an art form. I'm well aware Australian players dislike them - but I'm afraid that seems to be because they can't counter them effectively?

I wonder how our French friends feel about them?

[quote]They also have a heritage our forwards don't. [quote]

What a nice way of saying we used to breed heffers to lie on the ball all day and hiot anyone coming near?

Okay I'd like to see our French amis comment on some of the points as we are beating each other with the same old sticks (and you SH guys outnumber me!).

Hope they were happy dream Finbar, enjoy all the weekend rugby and I'll catch up with you all Monday (in various time zones).

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Havak
And it doesn't worry you at all that neither man would currently get in the England 22?

Do you have any evidence to back up that outrageous claim??

Neil back is the master that Smith aspires to be and Lewis Moody is certainly more dynamic than Smith and almost a lunatic in the way he commits himself.

I think Finbar will agree with me when I say...BOLLOCKS!

I think we have a difference of opinion here that is probably due to the fact that Finbar and I dont watch as much NH rugby as you, and you dont watch as much SH rugby as us. When you see great performances from the same great players often enough it tends to skew your perspective of other great players that you dont watch as much. The only way to settle this is to have England play NZ and Australia.

Unfortunately we have to wait till November to see England play Australia, and next year to see England play NZ.