Rugby!

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar
I've just had a late thought. How about we bet in pints of bitter? That might appeal to someone we both know. No names no packdrill, as the old saying goes.

I did consider that, but I would feel guilty if you or Havak had to buy all my beers if we ever met up.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Havak
Now that’s classic Havak too – a cheap jibe at Welsh rugger following a jingoistic reminder of English success.

Apolyton's rugby thread - where the cheap jibes flow freely

I think it is brewed in London here – and that Thames water is uniquely charactered. Seriously (again, it might be habit forming!) UK brewed Stella is good – I have to say I prefer the Belgian original myself. For the benefit of the French guys I really like 1664 as well – but I do only drink premium lagers really.

I generally like all kinds of beer...mmm..beeer...goood...

Have you ever tried Budvar – the Czech beer that ‘Weiser was apparently ‘based’ on. It’s all right

Yes, I remember trying that one a few times when I lived in London

Interestingly though if the England development side tours Canada next summer I will possibly be calling in on a tour mates family in Manhattan – there might be scope to reclaim his pad for the Empire then.

It would be great to have a few beers with you when you come over New York has heaps of great pubs.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak

I think the sheer disciplined aggression of the pack caught the Aussies slightly on the back foot last November (in that I think they expected a little more forwards indiscipline as in the recent French tests Finbar?).

Your lot played damn well - especially in the forwards - our lot were at the ***-end of a long season (there's that age-old touring problem again!) minus key players and with a new coach. Obviously the circumstances will be different this time around (save for the timing) and whether the outcome is different will be interesting to see.

Now that’s classic Havak too – a cheap jibe at Welsh rugger following a jingoistic reminder of English success.

The only jibes we accept in this thread are cheap jibes. In fact, Caligastia, as you seem to have assumed the role of moderator of this thread - which, I hasten to add, is only fair and reasonable on the basis that you're the only one who seems remotely sensible - I put it to you that you should devise some sort of penalty system. Perhaps something along the following lines:

1. Anything approaching sensible comment - a warning;
2. Anything approaching intelligent comment - a yellow card;
3. Anything approaching genuine wit - lifetime ban in addition to having to carry Havak home from Tigers' Cheer Squad meetings.

Of course, if you find more useful things to do with your time, feel free to do them.

And Finbar you may be right about Elephant – I last drank it in Belgium whilst on tour so my recollection of where it was from is vague at best – and may have been influenced by where I was rather than where it actually got brewed.

What's Carlsberg? Is that Danish?

But to return to non too serious type…

*Havak looks a yellow card in the eye*

You have been waiting since June 2000 for a victory over us Finbar – two consecutive defeats (we will have to be careful about the vertigo!)

It's a bit like training a dog. The greatest danger is breaking the dog's spirit. Therefore, appropriate doses of encouragement are called for. OTOH, the master always remains the master.

And I’m not your average Pom I guess.

Do you visit foreign ports, drink a lot, argue the Charge Of The Light Brigade was bravery on a stick, and make no attempt with the local language?

I come a cropper when my sub-conscious stabs me in the back don’t you think – I didn’t even know I hated SH refs until I ‘accidentally’ wrote it.

Caligastia tossed Freud into the equation the other day. The good doctor rears his wee head again, methinks.

What Caligastia’s adopted countrymen call the war of Independence is actually referred to as the “Tax dodgers rebellion” or “American Colonial Rebellion” here – buit I need to be careful expanding on that to avoid drawing in American posters who might not realise I’m not having a go at the good ‘ol US of A by saying that?

American posters? In this thread? They'd have stumbled over the first piece of irony, shat themselves, declared it part of the Axis Of Evil, and fled back to their mindless basketball or even more mindless Refrigerator Gymnastics or whatever that ridiculous game that takes 98 hours to play is called.

Interestingly though if the England development side tours Canada next summer I will possibly be calling in on a tour mates family in Manhattan – there might be scope to reclaim his pad for the Empire then.

Just out of interest - does Mrs Havak make any of these tours? Or was that part of the pre-nuptial agreement?

And Italy is great yes – I did the Italy-England game in March 2000 and spent four blissful days in Rome which has all the qualities you imply (oh yeah and booze is dirt cheap in Northern Italy too).

Next time you're in the Firenze area I'll give you the name of a terrific - and not overly expensive - restaurant.

Just about covered everything there – even if I overused the smilies as usual.

Too many smilies are never enough!

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia


Oh I see! You let us win! It all becomes clear now...

See my note to Havak about the parallels between rugby and training a dog.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia


I did consider that, but I would feel guilty if you or Havak had to buy all my beers if we ever met up.

*Havak and finbar immediately set to with sewing machines to extend the depths of their pockets beyond arm's reach*

[Andydog]

I've just come across this thread, all 14 pages of it. Although I can't be arsed to read the whole thing, it seems to contain a lot of the typical Auzzy gas.

Well, we like to think of New Zealand as 3rd World...

If that is the case then it must bother you severely to constantly get your arse whooped by a third world nation.

Seriously, NZ is leading the world in many different areas of scientific research. For example, engineering. In Auckland there is a sky tower made of concrete that is taller than the Eiffel tower. Now that may not seem very impressive, but bear in mind that NZ experiences earthquakes on a daily basis - often with magnitudes of around 5 - 6.

Anyway back on topic, NZ will win the tri nations. The All Blacks are mostly Crusaders, who won the Super 12 quite easily, thumping the Australian sides in the process. Granted we had a shaky first game against the Italians, but that last game against the Irish is just the tip of our potential.

If I was an Australian I'd be worried about the tri nations. I'd be considering going back to the dust & flies that they call 'the bush'.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Andydog
I've just come across this thread, all 14 pages of it. Although I can't be arsed to read the whole thing

Good grief! There's Nobel Prize-winning stuff in these 14 pages. Pulitzer Prize-winning stuff, indeed. In fact, we're nominating our resident Pom - Havak, from Leicester - for the Booker Prize! He's currently onto chapter 186 of "1001 Bottoms Of Pint Pots I Have Seen".

If that is the case then it must bother you severely to constantly get your arse whooped by a third world nation.

As I pointed out to our resident Kiwi, Caligastia, it's cheaper than shovelling Foreign Aid in your direction.

Seriously, NZ is leading the world in many different areas of scientific research. For example, engineering. In Auckland there is a sky tower made of concrete that is taller than the Eiffel tower. Now that may not seem very impressive, but bear in mind that NZ experiences earthquakes on a daily basis - often with magnitudes of around 5 - 6.

But did you know New Zealand invented the paper clip? I kid you not. And the bungie jump. Seriously. I think they both put a blob of concrete - albeit a biggie - to shame.

Anyway back on topic, NZ will win the tri nations. The All Blacks are mostly Crusaders, who won the Super 12 quite easily, thumping the Australian sides in the process. Granted we had a shaky first game against the Italians, but that last game against the Irish is just the tip of our potential.

We're starting a rugby betting pool for the coming international season. It's mentioned in the last couple of pages. Care to join in?

If I was an Australian I'd be worried about the tri nations. I'd be considering going back to the dust & flies that they call 'the bush'.

Anyone who ever takes the All Blacks lightly is off their head.

And, having said all that, on behalf of our resident group of rugby freaks - welcome to our home! It ain't much, but it brings us comfort. Feel free to hang around and contribute.

[Havak]

It would be great to have a few beers with you when you come over

If it all starts to look like it will come together I’ll make sure this gets sorted.

and whether the outcome is different will be interesting to see.

We can be fairly sure it should be close I guess. Our secret weapon is that playing you (or NZ in all fairness to them) means a great deal to us – Poms like nothing better than to put one over on Aussies after all.

By the way – it seems I am in no danger of any of the proposed penalties? Mind you at least I have bags of practice of carrying myself home form the “cheer squad”, not that genuine wit is a very real threat from me of course.

What's Carlsberg? Is that Danish?

It sure is. That’s one I know for sure. Of course it too is “brewed in the UK under licence” – you would think it might be cheap enough to ferry the real stuff over?

*Havak looks a yellow card in the eye*

I can’t accept that I made an intelligent comment – surely not?

the master always remains the master.

You may be risking a lifetime ban?

Nicely put however. I continue to concede that until we beat you down there (and we are still 0/11 I believe) we will not have overcome your jinx status over us.

game that takes 98 hours to play is called.

Whatever it is there will be a world series of them and Canada in it?

Having said that I think someone else has found the thread who has largely missed the irony?

does Mrs Havak make any of these tours?

God no – you have no idea what would happen to me if I proposed taking a woman on tour!!!

Next time you're in the Firenze area I'll give you the name of a terrific - and not overly expensive - restaurant.

I will take you up on that – it’s likely to be 2004 however.

And I would echo Finbar there AndyDog – hang around and get involved. This entire thread is approached very light heartedly.

By the way Finbar - didn't you mean anyone who takes the All Blacks or England lightly is off their head?

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak

By the way – it seems I am in no danger of any of the proposed penalties? Mind you at least I have bags of practice of carrying myself home form the “cheer squad”, not that genuine wit is a very real threat from me of course.

Oh! Sorry, Havak, I thought I'd spread the penalty net wide enough to encompass all of us. Mmmmm. Okay, I'll give it some thought. I'd assume a warning for spilling a drop would be - well, the definition of redundancy?

I can’t accept that I made an intelligent comment – surely not?

Now, now, we don't deal in modesty around here, you know that.

Having said that I think someone else has found the thread who has largely missed the irony?

Mmmmmmmmm.

God no – you have no idea what would happen to me if I proposed taking a woman on tour!!!

I've seen women in the Barmy Army following the English cricket team. Rugger's obviously different. Say no more.

By the way Finbar - didn't you mean anyone who takes the All Blacks or England lightly is off their head?

How can I put this? Delicately? (*clears throat*)

[Havak]

Very delicate.

I'd assume a warning for spilling a drop would be - well, the definition of redundancy?

Close enough not to matter anyway.

Now, now, we don't deal in modesty around here, you know that.

It’s wasn’t modesty – incredulity maybe.

I've seen women in the Barmy Army following the English cricket team. Rugger's obviously different. Say no more.

The difference is in the definition of “tour”. This bar does not apply to most home games for England or Tigers but my foreign trips assume tour status and are strictly male only – because Mrs Havak does not need to see what we get up to on them.

Okay, an old theme here, but I’ve just been reading Stephen Jones latest bit on PR. My word he hates Aussies doesn’t he? Please keep in mind that he also hates Tigers and is not a big fan of England either – so I’m not too inclined to slavishly accept what he is saying. Some of it though did carry some resonance – I know you think I can’t let the Lions tour go, and it is quite true – but Stephen managed to sum it up with part of what he said

All in all, the impression left with the departing Brits and Irish at the end of the tour was of a thoroughly agreeable country and a thoroughly graceless rugby population. That will not be good enough in 2003.

I had already decided not to go to RWC 03, not because I don’t like Australia, I had a great time there after all, but at no time did I feel even slightly welcome in any stadium venue. That was an Alien experience to me – and I’m a veteran of visits to Wales, Scotland, France and Ireland remember.

That really is why it’s so hard for me to let it go I guess.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Okay, an old theme here, but I’ve just been reading Stephen Jones latest bit on PR. My word he hates Aussies doesn’t he? Please keep in mind that he also hates Tigers and is not a big fan of England either – so I’m not too inclined to slavishly accept what he is saying. Some of it though did carry some resonance – I know you think I can’t let the Lions tour go, and it is quite true – but Stephen managed to sum it up with part of what he said

Where this article from? I must read it. You know what I think of him. I didn't get to any of the Lions matches but I've been to enough Tests. As I've said before, you're going to get penis heads everywhere. I think he's probably up to his usual opinionated, unsubstantiated drivel.

I had already decided not to go to RWC 03, not because I don’t like Australia, I had a great time there after all, but at no time did I feel even slightly welcome in any stadium venue. That was an Alien experience to me – and I’m a veteran of visits to Wales, Scotland, France and Ireland remember.

That really is why it’s so hard for me to let it go I guess.

And to top everything off, the Lions lost!

[Havak]

Well that sure didn't help yes.

The full article is on Planet Rugby at


Stephen's article

As I've said before, you're going to get penis heads everywhere. I think he's probably up to his usual opinionated, unsubstantiated drivel.

The former is a fair point I fully accept, and the latter is very true - some parts of the anti-Aussie ranting made even me squirm

Its hard to put my finger on though - something was unique about the attitude of the crowds I saw in Oz. It could well be that they consisted of a non-representative Wallaby fan base - the games were of massive appeal and I'm sure there were Aussies there who hardly know Union (in fact I KNOW there were - I debated with several in the grounds).

Whatever it was the atmosphere was not nice. I refered the other day to the 'hatred' the Celt sides have for us, but that is all kept within the spirit of the game. Some of the stuff directed at us in Melbourne and Sydney had a real venomy feel.

I guess really I need to try it again to see if it was a one off?

I'll catch up with you tomorrow.

[finbar]

And I'll refute most of the immediately above tomorrow, too. Or some of it! It's past my bedtime!

[finbar]

Well, 'ere we go, 'ere we go, 'ere we go. Just thought I'd open with something recognisably Pom for you, Havak.

Its hard to put my finger on though - something was unique about the attitude of the crowds I saw in Oz. It could well be that they consisted of a non-representative Wallaby fan base - the games were of massive appeal and I'm sure there were Aussies there who hardly know Union (in fact I KNOW there were - I debated with several in the grounds).

Whatever it was the atmosphere was not nice. I refered the other day to the 'hatred' the Celt sides have for us, but that is all kept within the spirit of the game. Some of the stuff directed at us in Melbourne and Sydney had a real venomy feel.

I know I've said this before, but the Lions tour was marketed - not least by the Lions - as the World Heavyweight Championship. Both sides pumped it up into a hothouse atmosphere. Added to that - and I know I've said this before - there was a deal of aggro put about by various members of the Lions party. I know you have a problem with this - but it's true. And, yes, there was Australian response in kind. It was probably mainly motivational, but that doesn't matter - it happened. And contributed to the hothouse.

And, when that sort of thing happens, you're in danger of appealing to a Lowest Common Denominator. We see it here with One Day Cricket. It's pitched at the LCD. Surprise surprise, you get massive crowds, a portion of which - not cricket fans - take it upon themselves to pelt the players and the ground with bottles and other assorted rubbish. Such is the risk you run when you pump up an event with a lot of provocative, nationalistic hype.

Frankly, I can do without it. But, I suspect, it's all part and parcel of selling rugby - and cricket, for that matter - in an increasingly competitive sporting market place. Somehow, I think one just has to live with it.

I suspect the situation is decidedly different in the NH - in GB, in particular - because, there, rugby is entrenched. Here, it's not. It's emerging from decades and decades as a mocked and ridiculed minority sport for pipe-smoking boffins with leather patches on the elbows of their jackets. Thus the overblowing that goes on. But it comes at a price.

So the problems you - and Penis Head Jones - encountered were not with rugby fans. And I'd've thought the differences were plainly obvious. I also suspect that, had the Lions won, the attitudes would be markedly different. Be that as it may, at the risk of a massive generalisation, the typical Australian genuine rugby fan is good humoured, very knowledgeable, and will applaud an opponent's skills. In fact, not dissimilar to the typical genuine Australian cricket fan. But, as I say, marketing comes at a price.

I read the SJ article. For starters, I have great trouble taking seriously anyone who misuses the word "fulsome" as he does in the fifth paragraph. Get a dictionary, SJ. He also opts for a cheap journalistic trick by including unsubstantiated speculation - the bit about locked turnstiles in the Lions supporters' section - in support of his case. That turnstile story started as a joke when someone suggested locking the Lions supporters out of the ground.

Beyond that, all he reveals is an ignorance of this country. Australian Olympic crowds were welcoming to, charitable to, and supportive of other countries' athletes because that's the way they are. It had nothing to do with our having only one competitive athlete. SJ obviously isn't aware that Australian sporting crowds are legendary for supporting an underdog team against their own team. It's a manifestation of this country's inferiority complex.

And that's about as many brain cells as I care to waste on the penis head.

The RWC 2003 will be a re-run of the Olympics. A wonderful time will be had by all. Australians will settle on a favourite underdog team and barrack them all the way. And even barrack for them against their own team. There will, ironically, be less of the LCD aggro in the traditional heavyweight clashes - Wallaby/England/NZ - simply because of the shortage of tickets available to the general public. And, if the Wallabies bow out along the way, Australians will do exactly what the Irish did. The Irish and Australians have much in common - beyond obvious genealogical connections. Something else SJ neglected to research.

One more thing on SJ before I enjoy my latte and cigarette. I suspect he would also confuse "less/fewer" and wouldn't know the subjunctive tense if it bit him on the prong.

[Havak]

This is where our only real major disagreement comes then I guess, as I refute some of what you said there.

…but the Lions tour was marketed - not least by the Lions - as the World Heavyweight Championship

Um, nope. It was marketed by the Australian Union as this. Here it was only ever marketed as a “supreme challenge”. In all the domestic marketing here the Wallabies were afforded total respect. Compare that to the press the Lions received down thereeven before landing perhaps?

Both sides pumped it up into a hothouse atmosphere

Players on both sides spoke when silence would have served better. Our coach, who I would remind you was not a Brit shot his mouth off inappropriately. But he did this partly because the O’Neil mafia placed the Lions under enormous pressure with the bull they PR’d about the touring party.

there was a deal of aggro put about by various members of the Lions party

You know I can never accept that. It was the AUSTRALIAN game plan from the Western Australia game on to cripple the tour party. No Lions tour has ever suffered so much malicious injury. It’s a real black mark against your Union and it serves no purpose to maintain the ARU line that “it was all the Lions” – that’s bull pure and simple. Two teams take to a field every time. And the final point is had the Lions intended to physically destroy your minor sides they would have achieved it I can assure you. They actually set out to play open attractive rugby - albeit with Henry's weird obsession with patterns?

Funny isn't it how the "violent Lions" clamour only became really prominent after Brisbane?

I know I don’t read the game as well as you, we have adequate proof of that is the threads I can tell who throws a first punch (or knee etc) though and I know who started the majority of aggro on the tour, where I saw every single game. If there were punches outside the grounds however I will accept your judgment that the Lions were at fault. In essence your provincial boys tried to rough it with the cream of International NH forwards during this tour (missing only France) and that was an insane game plan. It has led to persistent bad blood. The Lions may never return (which would be a real shame?).

I hope and I trust however that our fans behaved impeccably, even under the kind of provocation I received walking out at Sydney (“go home you ******* pussies” – charming stuff). And please keep in mind we have returned to both RSA and NZ after losing tours – so don’t dismiss it as (just) sour grapes.

Ah lets face it Finbar we will never see eye to eye on it, lets move on. Do consider in all this my views were considered moderate amongst the fans who visited – believe that if you will!!

I take on board everything you say about Aussie rugby – it’s true our following is entrenched, but it is finally in growth as well. A large number of the Lions contingent will never have been on a tour before – the combined draw of Aus and Lions with better weather than our summer in your winter was massive – but I hope and believe even these virgins did not let us down? The odd p-head may have been present but where we found them we tried to police them ourselves. Of course the true rugger fans in the Aussie contingent lacked the number to have done that perhaps?

I do feel the approach to marketing from your Union is wrong however – I know the double jeopardy it faces in competing with Aussie Rules and League – the latter being proof some of your countrymen are insane just like mine? but Xenophobia is not the way to go – real problems for you down the line if visiting teams refuse to tour?

I should point out I chatted and drank (surprise) with Aussie players at local clubs like Cairns and Melbourne and we got on fine – well even. It’s not a nationalistic thing with me, it’s all about the persitent impression I have kept that the stadium atmosphere at all three tests was ‘off’, and that you media coverage was attrociously Xenophobic. You have given me more than enough material to understand why now.

I’ll make a seperate post to give my conclusion on Mr Jones.