Rugby!

[LDiCesare]

Hi, back from holiday. I didn't see France-Australia but know the result. Oh well...
One note for the Lions:
They did play France. Once. I think it was in 1989, as it was part of some larger celebration. They won, by the way.
I'd be interested in statistics about the proportion of English players vs. Welsh/Irish/Scots in the Lions over the time. Has any team ever had less English players than from one of the celt nations?

[finbar]

Welcome back, LDiCesare, we missed you. Well, Havak did, because there are now a couple of other Southern Hemisphere posters in the thread, and he was starting to feel outnumbered. Tamerlin is still on holidays.

That's a good question about the make-up of the Lions. I'd be interested to know too.

I watched quite a lot of the Springboks -v- Samoa last night. The Boks pretty much thumped the Samoans - as expected - but the Bok defence looked pretty ordinary. I saw two of the three Samoan tries and they strolled through yawning gaps.

[finbar]

Just out of betting interest, here are the latest (as of last night) odds for the ABs-v-Wallabies next Saturday night and the TriNations tournament itself. This is straight-out head-to-head betting, no margins involved:

Sportsbet

TriNations

NZ $1.90
Aus $2.35
SA $9.00

No market yet for next Saturday night.

NSW TAB

TriNations

NZ $1.75
Aus $2.25
SA $10.00

Next Saturday night

NZ $1.40
Aus $2.75

I've had a little something on the Wallabies at $2.75.

[Andydog]

I'd be interested in statistics about the proportion of English players vs. Welsh/Irish/Scots in the Lions over the time. Has any team ever had less English players than from one of the celt nations?

Hello LDiCesare, nice to meet you. The last three lions tours were like this:

In Australia in 2001 the Lions consisted of 16 English, 6 Irish, 10 Welsh and 3 Scots.
In South Africa in 1997 the Lions consisted of 21 English, 4 Irish, 8 Welsh and 6 Scots.
In NZ in 1993 the Lions consisted of 17 English, 4 Irish, 5 Welsh and 8 Scots.

So the proportions did move about a bit in the Celt sides, but always around half the players were English.

That's as far back as I looked, so it could still be possible that the English were outnumbered by another country at some stage before '93.

I saw some the SA Samoa game. SA looked good on attack - 60 pts is a good total. They are still giving away too many points however - 20 odd against Samoa, 30 odd against Argentina - their defence still needs a lot of work.

I see Havak has been a bit quiet lately. Too many of those accursed bitters not doubt.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Andydog

That's as far back as I looked, so it could still be possible that the English were outnumbered by another country at some stage before '93.

I'd be surprised. England would always have had more quality players than the Celts, wouldn't they? Gee, is that ever an invitation to Havak to express his utterly unbiased opinion?

I saw some the SA Samoa game. SA looked good on attack - 60 pts is a good total. They are still giving away too many points however - 20 odd against Samoa, 30 odd against Argentina - their defence still needs a lot of work.

Agreed. Did the Boks look a bit lumbering to you?

I see Havak has been a bit quiet lately. Too many of those accursed bitters not doubt.

He doesn't post on weekends. Mrs Havak seems to claim the computer on weekends. He tends to post from work like the sensible person he is.

[Havak]

In many ways that is fair enough – I seldom get chance to check the thread at the weekends because of my busy social calendar

two weeks holiday on the coast down around Carcasonne

I hope he had a great time. I seem to have sorted my long weekend for the south of France in December – crashing at a friend’s place in Perpignan and travelling to the Bezier game from there.

They are cloudy and can’t seem to chill down. And there is often so much sediment left over in your glass you could snort it

Bitter is meant to be cloudy (aka have body) and be served at room temp – which is fine here anytime but high summer.

Forgive the lol but if you were finding sediment in your glass the wags around you were in fact feeding you real ale rather than session bitters, and that is a very hard adjustment for someone who prefers lager.

But you know at the end of the day one man’s meat and all that? I’m lucky in that I can appreciate a good lager as well (vital if one intends to travel outside the UK!)

Which is why I’m not speaking to those French dudes.

After Paris this year I can understand that sentiment all right.

They did play France. Once. I think it was in 1989, as it was part of some larger celebration. They won, by the way.

Many thanks for this information. I would like to see them play France in a new series.

On the balance of players I suspect some of the Lions parties of the 60s and 70s might have been weighted in favour of Wales who had some superb teams in those decades when England were decidedly ordinary. Finbar, let that feed line go okay.

You know full well I can’t be totally objective on this but I firmly believe the number of Welsh players on last years tour had more to do with who the head coach was (the then Welsh coach) than them deserving ten berths. Just look at how many made the test sides – two, and one of those only because Healey’s back was dodgy. Quinell had a great tour but Corry nearly got the 8 shirt and if Dallaglio had been fit it would have been his too. Myself I would have taken Quinell and that’s about it from the ten (I like Colin Charvis but the England flankers are way better).

In NZ in 05 the English dominance of the squad could be even higher as we are hoping for an English coach – Woodward or Richards with any luck. There will be a new captain though.

[Havak]

Gee, is that ever an invitation to Havak to express his utterly unbiased opinion?

I like to think I can be fair when I set my mind to it. And in this case that does mean acknowledging that the Welsh teams of most of the 70s were way ahead of their English counterparts – in fact they were something special – the current team in Wales wouldn’t be worthy of carrying their water.

Scotland too have achieved above themselves historically and the Irish side of the mid seventies pulled of a shock victory or two.

Ah but I can’t be fair too long – in the last decade England have really asserted themselves over the Celts – and haven’t lost to Celts at home in that time, with the odd silly away loss blotting the copy book.

He doesn't post on weekends

I keep meaning to but having seen no Rugby this weekend I had little to offer really.

One thing I did catch was O’Neil re-opening the 4th Super 12 team push – he reckons Aus needs it to stop young players flocking away to rich English and French clubs - in fact the way he put it made us and the French sound like kidnappers – it gives another level of Aussie talent a chance to get top level experience.

Now I have no position on Aus having a fourth team, but I would point out that these young players will have a better experience playing top flight rugby for big clubs in France and England than taking part in an Australian “whipping boys” team that will compete with the South African sides to hold the Super 12 table up?

Its an interesting point though – will NZ ever support a fourth Aussie Super 12 side after being summarily kicked out of the RWC by the ARU?

Havak pulls the pin from the grenade, drops it between Finbar and Caligastia/Andydog and retires to a safe distance – the UK

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Finbar, let that feed line go okay.

*finbar grits his teeth*

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak

One thing I did catch was O’Neil re-opening the 4th Super 12 team push – he reckons Aus needs it to stop young players flocking away to rich English and French clubs - in fact the way he put it made us and the French sound like kidnappers – it gives another level of Aussie talent a chance to get top level experience.

Now I have no position on Aus having a fourth team, but I would point out that these young players will have a better experience playing top flight rugby for big clubs in France and England than taking part in an Australian “whipping boys” team that will compete with the South African sides to hold the Super 12 table up?

Yes, they will get experience, but I think the worry is getting them back. Joe Roff came back because he only ever planned a short break. He always saw his future here. With the money on offer up there, the younger players may be a different story. There's also, of course, the preference to watch them develop. It's hard to keep track of player performance that far away. Finally, of course, there's the different rugby styles. Do we want our Young Turks maturing in the NH style?

Its an interesting point though – will NZ ever support a fourth Aussie Super 12 side after being summarily kicked out of the RWC by the ARU?

NZ had agreed to support the extra S12 team but reneged. And that was before the RWC debacle. Which was of their own silly making. We keep hearing snippets from NZ about various reports compiled on the NZ effort in losing the WRC - heads rolling, et al. Some of the rumours are extraordinary. I just wish they'd make the reports public and get it over and done with. I suspect we'll end up with the fourth S12 team. Some sort of compromise - arm-twisting, palm-greasing, whatever - will happen.

Havak pulls the pin from the grenade, drops it between Finbar and Caligastia/Andydog and retires to a safe distance – the UK

Just wait till you see what sort of wedges we've lined up to drive between you, Tamerlin and LDiCesares.

[Havak]

because he only ever planned a short break

More specifically he wanted his Wallaby shirt back for the world cup? I think after that tournament he may well follow the cash again?

Do we want our Young Turks maturing in the NH style?

Damn – you have rumbled our subtle plan to eliminate the difference between NH and SH playing style. Make the world England.

I suspect we'll end up with the fourth S12 team

And to be fair again, with the current standard of Bok teams in the competition, it is hard to justify refusing Australia another team. A possible super 14 keeps being mentioned in the snippets I see on the web – who else is after another team?

Just wait till you see what sort of wedges we've lined up to drive between you, Tamerlin and LDiCesares.

You always pick the easy challenges – it won’t be hard to get an Anglo-French angle going.

Btw I understand we are deporting a young Australian today – accused of stealing some silverware in London yesterday.

I know it’s not rugby but consider this for a self-defeating English approach – in the last year Wimbledons show courts have been relayed with a clay base that has slowed them down an estimated 30% and in so doing altered them so they don’t suit our two top players. Only in England…

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak

More specifically he wanted his Wallaby shirt back for the world cup? I think after that tournament he may well follow the cash again?

Interesting theory actually. I wonder. He didn't have a great time over there. We'll see.

Damn – you have rumbled our subtle plan to eliminate the difference between NH and SH playing style. Make the world England.

I found an old atlas the other day that you'd love. It was from the days when the Commonwealth countries were coloured pink and pink dominated the world.

And to be fair again, with the current standard of Bok teams in the competition, it is hard to justify refusing Australia another team. A possible super 14 keeps being mentioned in the snippets I see on the web – who else is after another team?

The S14 has only been vaguely mentioned as far as I know. I don't know who would lay claim to the 14th team. The Boks certainly have at least one too many teams, arguably two. The Kiwis certainly couldn't support another one.

You always pick the easy challenges – it won’t be hard to get an Anglo-French angle going.

Oh, it's not hard. That, in itself, was the challenge - to find something, um, unexpected.

I know it’s not rugby but consider this for a self-defeating English approach – in the last year Wimbledons show courts have been relayed with a clay base that has slowed them down an estimated 30% and in so doing altered them so they don’t suit our two top players. Only in England…

You mean your top player - who just isn't big, strong or mean enough, it seems to me - and that Canadian chappie?

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar
The only jibes we accept in this thread are cheap jibes. In fact, Caligastia, as you seem to have assumed the role of moderator of this thread - which, I hasten to add, is only fair and reasonable on the basis that you're the only one who seems remotely sensible - I put it to you that you should devise some sort of penalty system. Perhaps something along the following lines:

1. Anything approaching sensible comment - a warning;
2. Anything approaching intelligent comment - a yellow card;
3. Anything approaching genuine wit - lifetime ban in addition to having to carry Havak home from Tigers' Cheer Squad meetings.

Andydog gets a yellow card

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Andydog
Cheers for the welcome dudes. Finbar I took your advice and read the entire 15 pages. I must admit I found the discussion most interesting. You all made some quality points about many different aspects of rugby, and I like how you all take the piss out of each other.

Take everything you read here with a mountain of salt.

I must admit that my rugby knowledge pales in comparison to you blokes, but I certainly enjoy the game thoroughly and follow it when I can. I've actually fired this page over to a Saffie mate - he has a head full of rugby facts so maybe he'll join us and explain why his boys are playing crap rugby at the moment.

It would be great to have a South African posting here. They are the only major rugby nation not represented here yet.

Caligastia - we must keep Finbar in check. He seems to have a tongue on him longer than a Doc Martin boot.

Yes, our resident aussie needs the occasional dose of kiwi wisdom...

Speaking of Docs, Havak you wouldn't happen to own a special drinking pair that you wear to the games? It's just that you sound like the rowdy type being a gnarly bitter drinker and that.

I predict that the ABs will win the first tri nations test against the Wallabies in a close intensely physical game by 5 points, and am prepared to bet Civ gold on it!

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar
You should be aware that your sole Kiwi compatriot, Caligastia, lives, in fact, in New York. I mention that only in passing, for your information. If anyone were to draw any conclusion to the effect that Caligastia saw sense and fled New Zealand - well, don't hold me responsible for other people's common sense.

I am feeling more like a New Yorker every day...

What have we invented? As one of my Oz compatriots posted in another thread recently, we invented the wine cask. Which just about sums up this anti-intellectual, phillistine rathole of a place under our current government. You should be aware, Andydog, that Caligastia, token moderator of this thread because he's the only mature one amongst us, has banned politics from this thread. Well, he's away for a week celebrating July 4th, so bugger him. Unless, of course, he has internet connection - in which case, Caligastia, sorry, the political reference just slipped out.

I see nothing political...

[Andydog]

Bitter is meant to be cloudy (aka have body) and be served at room temp – which is fine here anytime but high summer.

He’s Englishman alright! Warm cloudy beers indeed. It’s Mrs Havak I feel sorry for - I found that bitter, once drunken, seems to carry on brewing in your stomach. That bitter gave me some of the most shocking and offensive farts that I have ever produced – and it caused me no end of trouble I tell you. I refer to it as my “bitter experience of ’99”, and I will never forget it. Havak, you are obviously guilty of drinking it for years, I can’t begin to imagine how rotten your arse has become.

Its an interesting point though – will NZ ever support a fourth Aussie Super 12 side after being summarily kicked out of the RWC by the ARU?

I still haven’t been able to work out how this tiff started or what the real facts are. Some say the NZRFU initially agreed on the extra team, then reneged. Some say that ARU is getting too big for their britches – insisting that the Kiwis play more games just because John O’Neil can’t be arsed organising a strong domestic competition.

NZ has said “no thanks, we already have plenty of games with a full Super 12 season, a full NPC season, and 5 Home Tests”. The Australian knee-jerk reaction of “you are killing the game of rugby” and kicking us out of the RWC has done themselves no favours, only complicated the situation.

I personally think that Australian rugby is where it is today because of the NZRFU (and of course the SARFU). Just remember who it was that gave you a helping hand. Now it’s time to pull your finger out and start helping yourself – give your up & coming talent the opportunity they need via a domestic competition. An extra team in the Super 12 will not be as effective.

Sure, it won’t make you quite as much money, but that is the real issue isn’t it!

Andydog gets a yellow card

So early on? Story of my life...