Apartheid in Israel

[CyberGnu]

Ned, how could I have confirmed your observation when you apparently didn't read my post?

Ideology only comes in when people like siro claims that Israel should be allowed to execute all palestinians because the land is properly Israels anyway.

And idelogically, I think the world would be much better off with one less fascist state around. One built on stolen land with the backing of the worlds sole remaining superpower, no less.


But practially, I want Israel to stop being fascist and basically behave in a civilized manner. If you don't consider that a practical goal I don't understand how you can defend Israel at all... And since reality always wins over ideology, this is the solution we have to strive for.

[Ned]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Ned, how could I have confirmed your observation when you apparently didn't read my post?

Ideology only comes in when people like siro claims that Israel should be allowed to execute all palestinians because the land is properly Israels anyway.

And idelogically, I think the world would be much better off with one less fascist state around. One built on stolen land with the backing of the worlds sole remaining superpower, no less.


But practially, I want Israel to stop being fascist and basically behave in a civilized manner. If you don't consider that a practical goal I don't understand how you can defend Israel at all... And since reality always wins over ideology, this is the solution we have to strive for.

Alright, I'll bite. What should Israel do differently now?

[MOBIUS]

You are priceless!!!

Your link http://www.mideastweb.org/PalPop.htm backs my claims up 100%

I said:

In the 20’s the Jewish population of Palestine was only about 11%.

You said:

Sorry Moby, your figures are all wrong, maybe you should do some reading up on the facts.

Your little website conveniently points out that the percentage of Jews in Palestine in 1922 is 11.14%. Thanks for giving be the ammunition to prove that it is you who should do some reading up on the facts!

I said:

The only reason they might make up a third of the population by ’48 is because of illegal immigration / Here’s a website to prove it http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/rn.htm

You said:

They show how the British carefully controlled Jewish immigration, and there was nothing "illegal" about it, so stop saying that, it's baseless.

Seeing as you obviously didn’t read the website link I gave you, I’ll have to copy it below…

Despite the back and forth policy of the British, first supporting one side then the other, Jewish immigration did increase. In 1935 approx. 60,000 Jews moved into Palestine. In 1936 An Arab revolt broke out based on the fear that outsiders were going to take over their country. There were intermittent attacks on various Jewish settlements until 1939. By that date the British had managed to contain the Jewish immigrants, and the struggle for Palestine abated during WW2.
After the war, the struggle resumed and although Britain refused to admit 100,000 Jewish survivors of the Nazi death camps, large numbers gained entry by illegal means. In 1947 Britain declared the mandate unworkable and passed the problem over to the United Nations.

In the later Months of 1945 came an influx of refugees from central Europe organised by the Zionist Movement. Their aim was to create a Jewish State in the promised land.

Small Craft started to land illegal immigrants on the coast at night and the Royal Navy was asked to intercept them and bring them into Haifa, the Only Port on the Palestine Coast which could handle ships of any size. In the Years that followed up to 1948 Sailors of the Royal Navy dealt with numerous illegal ships carrying Immigrants. In the early stages only primitive coastal craft were encountered, but soon larger vessels arrived, all of them overcrowded and in poor and dangerous condition. But by the August of 1948 six large vessels had been arrested within two weeks, and accommodation in the camps ashore was at such a critical level that fresh arrivals were switched to Ministry of War transport ships and re-routed to Cyprus under escort.

This change of policy meant that illegal vessels would no longer stop when challenged. The use of ships weapons would have led to heavy casualties and warships now had to get alongside to transfer boarding parties. Immigrant vessels often would maneuver violently to avoid being boarded, a practice which could easily have led to a serious collision.

Boarding parties were often opposed by crowds armed with clubs, iron bars, and other implements that could and were used as weapons and since the crews of the illegal vessels often sabotaged their engines in order to claim that they had not entered territorial waters willingly, they often had to be taken in tow when they were in imminent danger of running aground. The Destroyers H.M.S. Providence, and H.M.S. Chevron also rescued over 800 survivors from a illegal immigrant vessel which sank off a Greek Island. Once the order away boarders was given in some cases the boarding parties would have to fight their way to the bridge to gain control of the ship.

The best known incident was when the former SS President Warfield (alias Exodus 1947) attempted to bring in 4.500 would be immigrants in the July of 1947, she was intercepted by a force that included the Cruiser H.M.S. Ajax. The destroyers had a very difficult time putting boarders on board and were badly damaged, after two hours of fighting the boarding parties finally gained control of the ship and steamed the vessel into Haifa. One crewman and two immigrants died from their injuries and two boarders seriously injured. The courage, determination and restraint of the boarding parties were crucial to the success of these missions. Once the vessel was under control they invariably behaved in a friendly and helpful manner towards the immigrants. Service in the Patrol was recognized by the award of the Naval General Service Medal. From start to finish 49 illegal immigrant vessels were arrested by the RN and some 66.000 people detained.

The fact is, using your very informative website (thank you so much! ), the Jewish population in Palestine more than quintupled from 83,790 in 1922 – to 445,457 in 1939!!! Much of it illegally! Unfortunately you figures don’t go past 1942, so we can’t see the impact of the second mass wave of illegal immigrations after the war. But we can read about the violent tactics they used above!

I also reiterate a question (the main question), if the British were handling the immigration as amicably as you suggest – why was there a large Jewish terrorist organisation attacking them???

Dodging the question?

End of Part One (Cal shoots himself in the foot!)

[CyberGnu]

Get out of the occupied territory (i.e. beyond the 67 borders).

Acknowledge the sovereignty of a viable palestinian state (including air space, water rights, etc). If Israel has complaints, let a third party handle arrests. Under no circumstances should Israel soliders be allowed to enter palestinian territory.

Solve the ROR, either by financially compensate nations willing to accept the refugees (possibly including the nascent palestinian state), or by partitioning off a (decent) third of Israel, or a combination of the two. Make the partioned land either a part of the new palestine or a separate state. (Or maybe a part of lebanon... Is that feasible at all?). This part must, of course, be viable as well. This is why the part closest to lebanon might be best...


And of course, treat the arabs living in Israel like equals. You'd think that that would be a given, but since at least Siros attitude is that they are treated equally right now, this apparently needs quite a lot of work too...

[MOBIUS]

Why do you:
A: Insist the jews have no rights, when they cleary do

That’s BS and you know it – why do you constantly use this extremely annoying tactic of putting words into my mouth/twist my words???

Jews should have as many rights (but not more!) as the next person!

The point of this thread Apartheid in Israel, is that they quite patently have ‘far more rights’ than Arabs within the Israel ZOC!

That is racist! Or religionist, or whatever. The plain fact is that it divides two groups of peoples into those that are privileged, and those that are discriminated against!

It is a form of Apartheid!

B:Continue to bring up New Zealand?

Because, for the millionth time…

If you support the right of the Jewish people to reclaim their land after over 1,000 years, then surely you should be willing to allow the Maoris to reclaim their land after over 100 years! To support one without supporting the other is an hypocritical stance – plain and simple!

Obviously I continue to bring it up – to show you up as a hypocrite…

Do your feelings toward Israel have another motivation? Since you refuse to accept the legality of their nation.

My Cal, I’m afraid I don’t understand what you could mean…

Surely the fact that the nation of Israel in it’s current incarnation is illegal in the eyes of the UN is reason enough…

I guess another motivation would be justice for a people who have been forced off their land, had it stolen and that those that still live inside Israel are treated like 2nd class citizens?

From that comment regarding the maoris it seems you support racial separation in New Zealand. Kind of racist dont you think? Not only that, but how will you distinguish maori from pakeha when there are no full-blooded maoris left?

No, I do not support racist separation – where did you ever get that I’d from?

I don't claim to have all the answers. But, because of the passage of time, you cannot realistically expect Pakeha who were innocent of the original land grab to give up their lands – that would be unfair! Actually, as unfair as expecting an Israeli to do the same in Israel.

What could be done is to give them compensation, as per the Maori Fisheries etc and maybe give them an autonomous region say on the East Cape? If the Maori decide to move there and the Pakeha move out – it is their choice.

As for distinguishing Maori and Pakeha, there are official methods – though I do agree that the Pakeha did do a pretty good job of killing off all the Maori and assimilating the rest so that there are no “full bloods” left. But they still have a strong language and culture!

The whole comparison with the ME is irrelevant anyway, so why do you keep bringing it up?

It’s entirely relevant – it is about a people reclaiming land that was once theirs! That’s what the Israelis have done – so why not the Maori?

Could it be because you have no rational argument for the ME, you think that bringing up the Maoris will make me defensive?

That’s why you proved part of my argument with your web link…

Actually bringing up the Maoris is merely to prove your argument is hypocritical. If you were an American poster, I would bring up the Native Americans…

Though I would say that seeing as you keep mentioning my mentioning it (and dodging the issue), that you are indeed on the defensive!

Nonsense. NO islamic culture has EVER allowed non Islamics any say whatsoever, it goes against Sharia.

Dealing in absolutes now… Ramo has the floor with this…

Even Ned says a few posts later talking about the Crusades…

They denied Christian free access to the holy places unlike the former Arab rulers.

Weren’t the Arabs an Islamic culture?

Cal exposed for talking BS!

[DinoDoc]

Personally, I could back Gnu's arguement wholeheartedly if he could find it within himself to draw a distinction between attacking the IDF and murdering men women and children.

[Ned]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Get out of the occupied territory (i.e. beyond the 67 borders).

Acknowledge the sovereignty of a viable palestinian state (including air space, water rights, etc). If Israel has complaints, let a third party handle arrests. Under no circumstances should Israel soliders be allowed to enter palestinian territory.

Solve the ROR, either by financially compensate nations willing to accept the refugees (possibly including the nascent palestinian state), or by partitioning off a (decent) third of Israel, or a combination of the two. Make the partioned land either a part of the new palestine or a separate state. (Or maybe a part of lebanon... Is that feasible at all?). This part must, of course, be viable as well. This is why the part closest to lebanon might be best...


And of course, treat the arabs living in Israel like equals. You'd think that that would be a given, but since at least Siros attitude is that they are treated equally right now, this apparently needs quite a lot of work too...

Well, It looks after all like we are on the same page. We can quibble about the '67 borders a bit, but the goal of US policy is the the same or equivalent to the above.

On ROR, this, of course, is a two way street. There were a lot of Jewish refugees from Arab lands that should also be compensated.

However, and I hope you understand this, all of the above depends upon a total Arab end to violence.

I would also add as a condition of negotiations that there be a viable, democratic Palestinian state. We cannot and should not trust the new Palestinian state to an authoritarian strongman whose whole history has been dedicated to violence and who has never known the rule of law. It is time for real democracy in Palestine.

[Ned]

BTW, There is a poll on CNN that asks the question of whether peace is possible with Arafat. 83% say no.

Arafat is the problem.

[Ned]

More of Arafat's doing:

From CNN today:

"Israeli troops -- who ringed Arafat's compound with tanks and swept across the city making arrests -- discovered two cars they said were loaded with explosives and destined for terror attacks.

The IDF said the cars were filled with "explosives containing tens of kilograms of TATP-type [triacetone triperoxide] explosive materials and other explosive devices."

Israeli identity cards were found along with documents related to the Palestinian Authority, the IDF statement said. "

[Caligastia]

Moby-

You are just another anti-semitic brit. Anti-semitism has a long history in your country, and you are carrying on the tradition.

Ever heard of the Exodus 1947?

http://www.ultranet.com/~ltolman/exodus.htm

The vessel was loaded with holocaust survivors, the british navy boarded it in international waters and forced it to return to.....GERMANY
They also killed several of the crew in the process. The brit authority ordered a "shoot on site" order on Jewish immigrants. They didnt have such a policy on the arabs.

Jordan's military was commanded by John Glubb, a SERVING british officer, when it attacked the Jews in 48.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Moby-

You are just another anti-semitic brit. Anti-semitism has a long history in your country, and you are carrying on the tradition.

Oh that's right - you lose the argument, so you insult me...

Please get your facts straight as it is becoming rather tiresome constantly correcting you...

How could I possibly be anti-semitic, when the arabs indiginous to the region (let's call them Palestinians because they live in Palestine ) are also semitic???

I can safely be called 'Anti-Zionist'. In fact I welcome it - go right ahead and call me an Anti-Zionist...

Ever heard of the Exodus 1947?

http://www.ultranet.com/~ltolman/exodus.htm

The vessel was loaded with holocaust survivors, the british navy boarded it in international waters and forced it to return to.....GERMANY

Well DUH! Of course I have, I gave you a direct link (albeit a British source!)...

I see you have decided to quote a rabidly pro-Israeli site...

As usual you twist the facts to suit your needs...

1) Because there were so many ships running illegal immigrants, the internment camps in Cyprus (no worse than the Australian treatment of the Afghans sent to Nauru!) were overflowing!

2) The illegal immigrants refused to be interned in France - so only then were they sent back to Germany...

BTW that's a Germany that had already been defeated for two years!

Maybe that's harsh, but they were given a choice - I don't remember your adopted country giving the Haitian refugees a choice when they drown off the shores of FL, like a bunch did only the other month. Those that get 'rescued' are promptly returned from whence they came! Things in Haiti aren't so bad now - but they were when the refugees were fleeing for their lives from the infamous 'Tonton Macout' (sp?) of the Duvalier Duo...

Don't throw stones in glass houses, Cal... *tut, tut*

They also killed several of the crew in the process. The brit authority ordered a "shoot on site" order on Jewish immigrants. They didnt have such a policy on the arabs.

They used deadly force to repel the British - are you going to finally read my link or what!?!? This is the third time I'm posting it! http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/rn.htm

Jordan's military was commanded by John Glubb, a SERVING british officer, when it attacked the Jews in 48.

Link please.

Now you can answer my previous posts, instead of hurling slanderous allegations...

[Panag]

Originally posted by Ned
BTW, There is a poll on CNN that asks the question of whether peace is possible with Arafat. 83% say no.

Arafat is the problem.

hi ,

yep , Ned he is one big problem , and if he and the hardheads leave it would be nice , ...

the problem with these guys is that they like war so much , they dont want to do anything else , ....the love it , so if we can get them out , peace is around the corner

have a nice day

[CyberGnu]

Dino, I see what you mean, but I fail to find a difference between palestinian resistance and say, the bombing of Hiroshima.

I can agree that deliberately targeting children when there are military targets equally accessible is hard to defend, but if the target is more general I have to say that the blood of the children is on the hads of the parents who brought them there.

[Caligastia]

Moby-

Okay, youre anti-jew then do you like that better?

[CyberGnu]

Ned, the problem isn't Arafat. He might be the least trustworthy man in the known universe, but it is still not his fault that Israel is occupying Palestine...

Much like DeGaulle, who by most accounts was a megalomanic bastard... Still doesn't mean he was responsible for the occupation of France.

And the only two things that CNN poll says is that Israeli propaganda is really good (which we all knew) and that there are lots of easily duped americans (not exactly news either).

I do appreciate you have the same goals. Of course, even Sharon gives lip service to half of them, under the condition that they will be carried out roughly five years after the earth have plummeted into the sun...

The two obstacles to peace right now is the Israeli occupation and Bush's inability to go against someone who keeps giving him money...