Apartheid in Israel

[CyberGnu]

Not implying that you are giving lip service to those goals, btw. I do hope that you believe wholheartedly in them. And with a realitistic timeframe.

BTW, what is your view on Sharons insistence that negotiations can only be incremental?

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Okay, youre anti-jew then do you like that better?

I am Anti-Zionist.

The fact that by definition all Zionists are Jewish means that I am anti the ideology of some Jews - those that are Zionists...

There are plenty of decent Jews in the World. There's at least 60,000 in Israel too - those that attended the recent peace march.

I also applaud the B'Tselem organisation, and people like Mordechai Vanunu (Lest we forget!)...

Sorry pal, much as you want me to be an anti-Jew racist - I am not.

I do hope you're not too disappointed...

[Caligastia]

Martin Luther king said :"Being anti-zionist is to be anti-jewish"

[Panag]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Ned, the problem isn't Arafat. He might be the least trustworthy man in the known universe, but it is still not his fault that Israel is occupying Palestine...

Much like DeGaulle, who by most accounts was a megalomanic bastard... Still doesn't mean he was responsible for the occupation of France.

And the only two things that CNN poll says is that Israeli propaganda is really good (which we all knew) and that there are lots of easily duped americans (not exactly news either).

I do appreciate you have the same goals. Of course, even Sharon gives lip service to half of them, under the condition that they will be carried out roughly five years after the earth have plummeted into the sun...

The two obstacles to peace right now is the Israeli occupation and Bush's inability to go against someone who keeps giving him money...

hi ,

we liberated our land , after they had took it in 48 , but the UN would not let us take it then , so when they started again in 67 , because they felt they had not enough , and we just retook ours , ....so we liberated our land , ...and as for yasser , then guy is not even born there , ... , so , he should go back from where he comes , ......

as for the rest , you really know next to nothing on the conflict , and even less on Bush , .....and yet there is so much one can read about the US government , ......even on the net

have a nice day

[Caligastia]

Moby-

http://www.yahoodi.com/

Despite its significance to the Jewish Nation, the State of Israel has failed to alleviate most of this trauma, and has not reduced the levels of antisemitism - it has simply allowed antisemites to masquerade themselves under the new banner of "anti-Zionism". We cannot expect antisemitism to disappear - Jewish existence and Jewish philosophy will always be threatening to its children: Christianity, Islam and Marxism. The trauma and insecurity, on the other hand, is within our power to diminish - should we decide to do so.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Martin Luther king said :"Being anti-zionist is to be anti-jewish"

Link.

Just because he was a respected man doesn't mean that his words should be blindly taken as gospel...

Zionism is about the conquest of land from another people, it is about religious discrimination at the expense of others.

How can you think that is fair?

The Jews lost that land over a thousand years ago - in fact it wasn't even theirs in the 1st place!

Let's give it back to the Canaanites!

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Dino, I see what you mean, but I fail to find a difference between palestinian resistance and say, the bombing of Hiroshima.

Palestinian resistance consists of attacks of IDF positions and is an imminently valid response to Israeli occupation. I would maintain that there are likely more effective way to resist but that doesn't from its validity.

Palestinian terrorism consists of attacks on civilian targets and lives. I disagree most vehemently with that this is in any way a moral way to carry out a war of any sort. It has also been extremely detrimental to the Palestinian cause.

[Caligastia]

Moby-
I gave you a link above

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Moby-

http://www.yahoodi.com/

Oh look, another Jewish fanatics site...

I think the 'CNN Lies' banner says it all...

Stop making yourself silly in front of the rest of Apolyton - it's starting to get embarrassing...

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Moby-
I gave you a link above

Well forgive me if I ask you for a less biased link...

[Caligastia]

If youre getting embarrassed then maybe you should just admit that you hate jews. According to MLK, the greatest civil rights leader of all time, you are a racist.

Its MLK's letters, do you think he is a "jewish fanatic"?

[Panag]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


Palestinian resistance consists of attacks of IDF positions and is an imminently valid response to Israeli occupation. I would maintain that there are likely more effective way to resist but that doesn't from its validity.

Palestinian terrorism consists of attacks on civilian targets and lives. I disagree most vehemently with that this is in any way a moral way to carry out a war of any sort. It has also been extremely detrimental to the Palestinian cause.

hi ,

ahem , and you are probably seeing this , well man , come over and see for yourself , ......go and live with the pals , lets see if they dont kill you , because they kill just about anything , they dont care that you defend them , even with lie's , they dont care who or what you are , as long as they can kill something they are happy .

as for the rest , how can you talk like that , many dont know what is going on for real , many people have never set one single foot in Israel , and yet you people talk like you have been the victims of the war going on there , .....sjee , we did not start this war , and with we "we" mean the Israeli's , including the pals who have an Israeli identity !

you people just fuel the war , like those so-called pals from egypt or irak , or iran , or whatevercountry , its because of people like that who are telling us what to do , and their involvement this war is here , not because of us , because their are people ALL over the world who enjoy hurting people , and pushing their views upon other's , sjeeeee , and then to tell that some people on the net are in real live like that to .

anyway , you want to talk "like you know it all" , come over , we shall give you a free tour , .......that is of course if you have the courage , ........
and yes some people from this site have done that , strange , they are all on the Israeli side know , now why would that be , .......

allas this is no discussion , this is a kind of talk between people who claim what its like , and what they say is the thruth , VERSUS , a group of people who live there , and go true it every single minute of the day , ...

have a nice day

[Ned]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Not implying that you are giving lip service to those goals, btw. I do hope that you believe wholheartedly in them. And with a realitistic timeframe.

BTW, what is your view on Sharons insistence that negotiations can only be incremental?

I think Oslo proved that incrementalism will probably fail. What needs to be done is to negotiate a complete peace agreement with the four quarters spelled out. This should be done sooner rather than later. To speed implementation, Europe, Russia, and the United States should guarantee a the peace treaty. If a buffer force is needed between Palestine and Israel, and I believe this will be required for around 50 years, then we three parties ought to make that commitment as well.

But I think Arafat has to go. Everytime peace is at hand, he pulls back and begins another infitada. Everytime Powell, Cheney or Bush make a serious move towards peace, Arafat unleashes another attack.

We are not victims of Israeli propaganda here in the US. We see things on US media and can draw our own conclusions. BTW, we also see and hear Arab propaganda as well.

As to Bush, many Americans think he is too soft on the Palestinians, not the other way around. I think, however, that he has cut a deal with the Saudi's to jointly work for peace.

As to the meetings taking place in Washington, I think that Bush will check with the Saudi's about Arafat. If they green light Arafat's removal, he's gone.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Ned


I think Oslo proved that incrementalism will probably fail. What needs to be done is to negotiate a complete peace agreement with the four quarters spelled out. This should be done sooner rather than later. To speed implementation, Europe, Russia, and the United States should guarantee a the peace treaty. If a buffer force is needed between Palestine and Israel, and I believe this will be required for around 50 years, then we three parties ought to make that commitment as well.

But I think Arafat has to go. Everytime peace is at hand, he pulls back and begins another infitada. Everytime Powell, Cheney or Bush make a serious move towards peace, Arafat unleashes another attack.

We are not victims of Israeli propaganda here in the US. We see things on US media and can draw our own conclusions. BTW, we also see and hear Arab propaganda as well.

As to Bush, many Americans think he is too soft on the Palestinians, not the other way around. I think, however, that he has cut a deal with the Saudi's to jointly work for peace.

As to the meetings taking place in Washington, I think that Bush will check with the Saudi's about Arafat. If they green light Arafat's removal, he's gone.

hi ,

Ned , you should read the whole deal , page by page , man its a document that was meant to create this war , ...want proof , just read it !

an other BS , yes with capital letters document that was pushed on us , by people who dont even know where Tel - Aviv is on a map , and yet they claim to know it all , ...and because of those people we are where we are today

have a nice day

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Caligastia
If youre getting embarrassed then maybe you should just admit that you hate jews. According to MLK, the greatest civil rights leader of all time, you are a racist.

Its MLK's letters, do you think he is a "jewish fanatic"?

I expect he was misinformed at the time, there wasn't Internet at the time for example... I expect he was appealed by the Israeli struggle against 'seemingly insurmountable odds'...

I remember I was when I was young - the underdog had triumphed against all adversity!

Then it all went horribly wrong for me around about the time of Lebanon '82, because it was about that time I started finding out about the fact that Israel wasn't such an underdog after all... I still remember the seemingly indiscriminate sheeling of Beirut and the massacres of Sabra and Chatilla as if it happened yesterday - that and the whole Falklands Campaign happened about the time I started really getting interested in World Affairs, and not just John Craven's 'Newsround...

I can see how if MLK didn't know the whole facts it might have clouded his judgement...

But this is of course hearsay - I will not be judged on the words of one man, when the UN passed a resolution that 'Zionism = Racism"...

So, what about those Canaanites?