Apartheid in Israel

[CyberGnu]

[quote]You want Israel to solve the problems that Arabs created themselves, while the Palestinians keep slaughtering them.
[quote]

I must have missed something... Arabs are presently occupying palestine? The whole jewish thing is just a facade? Hmm, world is turning upside down...

[CyberGnu]

you're again ignoring historical facts.

Terror exited before suicide bombings.

Terror includes the massacare of jews in 1920 and 1921, and 1929 and during 1933-1936.

No occupation by Jews there, is there?

And then, like now, it was pre-meditated and organized and incited. The mufti of Jerusalem, spreaded flyers against Jews during prayers, called for their murder.

He also was a friend to Hitler, and visited him several times. He tried to help form an Arab legion that fought against the brittish. He expressed his happiness at Hitler's final solution with regard to the Jews.

And you are still switching from reality to history. The cause of todays terrorism is the occupation, there is no question about that. None.

If you want to debate history you will have to pick a different thread. (Although it is almost physically painful to leave such a huge misrepresentation of history such as 1920 attidues without discussing 1917 attidues... It's like calling Hitler a peaceful man because he was a painter and refusing to look at anything post 1930... But alas, time is limited).

[CyberGnu]

Siro, there is a difference between absense of proof and proof.

If you want to claim that all swedes brand their young ones with butterknifes you must bring proof from a respected source. Most people think this would be obvious...

And on the other side of the line, if I want to claim that all swedes have foot long dicks, I need to support my claim by a respected proof... Quoting a random swedish source just doesn't cut it, it is basically nothing but hearsay.

And you have an immense problem understanding this, for some reason... Or it could be that you do understand it, but still don't admit it to yourself...

[Sirotnikov]

Excuse me, but I don't accept your claims about memri.

Memri is taking a side, just like me or you.

Does it mean that you don't consider me legitimate to argue with you?

Memri is exact and accurate - and unlike those international journalists, they actually dig in arab press and translate it.

[CyberGnu]

I think that you are legitimate to argue with, but not legitimate as a source.

Would you accept me saying 'well, jews are racists because MOBIUS said so' as a fact? I don't think so...

[CyberGnu]

and unlike those international journalists, they actually dig in arab press and translate it.

You apparently don't know what the purpose of a journalist is...

Goes with the whole Israeli propaganda mentality, I suppose... Who needs to check if claims are true, when making stuff up as you go along is so much easier?

[Sirotnikov]

I have said, however, that he is a pracmatic and selfish man, whose only chance of stauning in power is to get peace and a state for his people. He committed himself to that when he ended the first intifada.

You're completely wrong.

He's only chance of staying in power is perpetuating war - since the palestinians see him as the symbol of their struggle.

If peace ever comes while he's in office, he'll be kicked out - since he, like all dictators, stays in power by concentrating the public attention on a united enemy - Israel.

If the intifada is stopped - then real reforms will follow, and a democratic procedure and he and his corrupt government will be gone.

Meanwhile he's stealing the aid money for himself, and only deepens the intifada, causing more loss of life on both sides.

Arabs are presently occupying palestine? The whole jewish thing is just a facade?

If I remember correctly, it were Arab armies that invaded Palestine on 1948, causing Israel to defend herself.
Furthermore it were Arab armies that called for the Arab civilians to leave.
Furthermore it were Arab leaders who provoked Israel into occupying the 67 territories by sending terrorists inside Israel.

And you are still switching from reality to history. The cause of todays terrorism is the occupation, there is no question about that. None.

There's a difference between reason and cause.

The reason behind terrorism is the occupation, the belief that all Israel is theirs.

The theoretical causes are the belief in the sanctity of muslim land, the belief in the glory of their civilization.

The actual causes are the encitement, the glorification of terror, the aid of the PA to the terror organizations, the aid of Hezballa to terror organizations, the aid of Iran and Iraq to terror organizations.

If you want to debate history you will have to pick a different thread. (Although it is almost physically painful to leave such a huge misrepresentation of history such as 1920 attidues without discussing 1917 attidues... It's like calling Hitler a peaceful man because he was a painter and refusing to look at anything post 1930... But alas, time is limited)

You're again talking nonsense and confusing yourself.

You are saying that it's impossible to discuss current events without discussing prior ones, but then you tell me to leave out the history that proves systematic arab agression, without relation to occupation.

Quoting a random swedish source just doesn't cut it, it is basically nothing but hearsay.

Depends what swedish source.

If it's a respected well known source, preferably a news agency, then it's a respectable source.


You on the other hand, claim that anything that can't be found in international media is propoganda put in my mind by the government.

I think you're confusing Israel and Iraq.

I explain to you the reasons why the international media is not only inexact, but also biased. It's well known things like flock/pack journalism , neo-marxist activist approach, lack of investigative reporting, usage of biased sources for evidence (90% of camera men are palestinian etc).

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
You apparently don't know what the purpose of a journalist is...

Goes with the whole Israeli propaganda mentality, I suppose... Who needs to check if claims are true, when making stuff up as you go along is so much easier?

Again you're spouting mindless nonsense.

First, you have absolutely no reason to believe that memri.org lies to you. It has documented sources which you are free to check, and links where applicable.

Furthermore, being the "israeli mentality" that I am, I actually checked and found consistence between their articles, and arab newspaper translations, made on their own sites.


And again, you see lack of proof (you couldn't find a story in google) as a proof that JP lies to you. That's a rather dumb approach.

[Sirotnikov]

I think that you are legitimate to argue with, but not legitimate as a source.

Would you accept me saying 'well, jews are racists because MOBIUS said so' as a fact? I don't think so...

Again you're using strawmen arguements.

If I tell you that I wittnessed event A, then I'm a source, and legitimate as such (if you believe me).

You can disagree with the interpertation memri.org gives, but it's translations are real and accurate, to the best of my knowledge, and again, I checked with internet english versions of arab newspapers.

[Sirotnikov]

Goes with the whole Israeli propaganda mentality, I suppose... Who needs to check if claims are true, when making stuff up as you go along is so much easier?

This is again one of your lazyness straw men arguements.

How do you know that this is invented?

Did you bother to check?

No, you decided that you don't like the content and therefore dismissed it as invented, instead of checking the legitimate sources, which are always mentioned.

[CyberGnu]

Did I bother to check? How could I? You ask me to prove a negative again.

Your view of media has turned into a religion. Only in jewish media shall ye see the truth!

If it doesn't appear in a repsected media odds are it never happened. Almost as good odds are that a real jounralist checked out teh rumor, couldn;t find any evidence, and thus didn't print it.

But since it is a religion for you, you wont get it. I'm just talking out of my ass, denying the obvious truths that you know from your church...

[CyberGnu]

In regards to Arafat, we are basically claiming to different facts. I got mine from international press and their analysts. I don't know where you got yours, but it wasn't international press.

So I'm facing the futility in trying to convince you of something against your religion again. Nothing I can say will ever faze you as long as you don't understand reality...

[CyberGnu]

Historical aspect in a nutshell: Israel is illegal. Arab attack in 1948 justified since Israel illegal. Palestinian suffering casued by ISrael, not some mythical arab armies enslaving them.

If you want to debate this, then there is adifferent thread for that. You might want to bring real sources this time though. Supporting your claims by 'facts' from arabs-are-pigs.org or whatever site you want to use doesn't cut it. If you want to learn how to quote, ask Kruose, one of the few people on these forums who actually seems to fully understand the importance of primary literature.

[GeneralTacticus]

Israel is illegal.

You condemn Israel for ignoring the U.N., while claiming that Israel is illegal when it was created by U.N. approval?

Arab attack in 1948 justified since Israel illegal.

See above. In any case, even if you were right, Israel being illegal would not justify the stated aim of the Arab invasion - that of exterminating the Israeli Jews.

Palestinian suffering casued by ISrael, not some mythical arab armies enslaving them.

Palesinian suffering now caused by Palestinian terrorist groups and Israeli retaliation against them. Palestinian suffering after 1948 caused by their exodus due to the fighting, the impossibility of their return due to an absence of peace, and the refusal of both them to accept resettlement in their host countries and their host countries to allow said resttlement.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Mobius-

Quite frankly, Im shocked at your bigotry. You would rather see jews die in death camps in germany than allow them a country of their own.

What death camps?????????????

Correct me if I'm wrong but 1947 was two years after the war had ended!

That's right - try putting words into my mouth and fall flat on your face through your own colossal stupidity!

(You have to be colossally stupid not to realise that the war ended in '45!)

Still waiting for your replies to my points, you know waiting for you to actually debate instead of hiding behind Siro's apron strings and slandering me...

Moby, you are remarkable in your ability to ignore fact, truth, and suffering in this discussion. A stone has a higher learning curve then you sir!

Why didn't the US take then between '45 & '47 - they had plenty of room and the infrastructure to receive the Jewish refugees?

Apparently the prevailing wisdom is that after surviving against the odds in the hellholes of the death camps, the average Jewish survivor wanted to live the American Dream and NOT go to a hostile land, with a hostile people and a hostile government with an uncertain future... The analogy 'From the Frying Pan, into the Fire' springs to mind...

Apparently the US thought it was a better idea that they went directly to Palestine, thus exacerbating an already difficult problem...

So, I'm waiting for a serious response to the points that I have so far raised, as opposed to your constant personal attacks which are a crude attempt at character assassination...

To me that's just an admission that you've lost this argument...

Siro, I'll waste some time on you later cos I'm going out now - but saying that you don't let Palestinians in because, wait for it, they're Palestinian sounds pretty racist! Apartheid is about segregation.

In SA segregation included seperate beaches, buses etc - that's why I asked the question.

Obviously Palestinians aren't allowed on Israeli buses because, as you said, they aren't even freely allowed into much of the same country that they live in!

That is APARTHEID!

Either they live in the same country (West Bank and Gaza) as the rest of Israel, OR Israel should stop colonising foreign soil and get the f*ck out!