Race mixing

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Aeson


I doubt there is any genetic reasoning going on in bigotry. There is a basic fear of the unknown that is instinctual which can lead to bigotry in a non-integrated environment. That is the main reason why integration helps decrease bigotry.

I agree.

Yes, you just have to give it time

Everyone seems so sure that given time, racial bigotry will be reduced through integration. Is there any evidence for this? Has this happened in the past with other civilizations? Have racial tensions increased or decreased in the US since non-white immigration was increased?

I think the answers to these questions are not as simple as many people think. It would be fantastic if we could have a society of diverse people without racial tension, but is it just a pipe dream?

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Aeson


This is a tough one.

There definitely can be an increase in tension between opposed groups when they are in close proximity to each other. There is more likely to be actual violence between them than if they were seperated obviously. It isn't an argument against integration though, as the groups segregate themselves, which is the problem.

See, this is exactly what I am getting at. When large groups of people from a different cultural background move to the US, they naturally stick together. If large groups continue to move in to the same areas you eventually have a country within a country. How does this achieve "diversity"? To allow immigrants more time to assimilate into mainstream society, wouldnt it be wiser to slow down the rate of immigration? Perhaps selecting from a wider range of countries, but taking less immigrants from each would be better. With greater variation there would be less chance of immigrants segregating themselves.

[Aeson]

You really have to ask if racial tensions in the US have decreased since the 60's? I'm sure you can see how racial equality has increased throughout our history. Slavery is no more, everyone has equal voting rights, sports, schools, and business are no longer segregated. I wouldn't claim that integration has been the only factor in this, but it has played it's part.

On a personal level you can see it even more clearly. I know a lot of good, well-meaning people who have archaic racial conceptions. Invariably they are from communities where those they look down on are not present or a very small percentage. All they know about X race is that their parents didn't like them, and neither did their friends parents.

[problem_child]

I don't think (nor want) there to ever be just one race, all the races we have now and more would be good. The thing about us human beings is we tend to forget that although we participate in and help mould cultures and societies and social assignments- races are purely in natures domain, evolution, natural genetic entropy, nature isn't a uniformist- and humans don't create races. No amount of social engineering will have an effect on what nature does over the course of hundreds of thousands of years.

Races are beyond our concious abilitiy to control and people should stop trying to 'own' them all the time like nazi's trying to feel possesive of northern europeans and then getting upset when a white guy turns out to be gay or catholic or a communist, or like black people who talk about being proud of being black like they were at gods side that day of creation saying things like: "that colours nice, yeah... no number 5, the brownish-red... here gimme the brush let me mix it, I've got a good eye for these things" (although I understand not letting someone make you feel ashamed of being black, a persons skin-colour or race just is not gonna be on their personal list of achievments or crimes in life).

No human political system has lasted even three thousand years (thats including religions) what hope does some American immigration policy, political correctness or 'racist' world-view have of facing out the hundreds of thousands of years it takes a race to come into existance- None.

Even Hitler was aiming for only one-thousand years of rule... and faced huge problems just trying to define exactly who counted as a 'Jew'- if he'd won he'd have to have invaded and holocausted the Middle-east too, and all the Arabs and vasts swarthes of central Asia to destroy all the actual racial groups from which jewish people are drawn. A couple thousand years of people sticking together becouse of a common religion doesn't alter the underlying racial-genetic realities after all.

Bottom line is this- you may as well be some ants standing around arguing with each-over about what colour they will paint the sky- its simply not something for ants to decide.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Aeson
You really have to ask if racial tensions in the US have decreased since the 60's? I'm sure you can see how racial equality has increased throughout our history. Slavery is no more, everyone has equal voting rights, sports, schools, and business are no longer segregated. I wouldn't claim that integration has been the only factor in this, but it has played it's part.

You seem to be confusing racial tension with racial equality. Racial equality does not necessarity equal less racial tension.

On a personal level you can see it even more clearly. I know a lot of good, well-meaning people who have archaic racial conceptions. Invariably they are from communities where those they look down on are not present or a very small percentage. All they know about X race is that their parents didn't like them, and neither did their friends parents.

So because they only have a very limited experience of the people from the other race, their judgement is based on ignorance. The other problem is that when the minority race grows exponentially, they will also feel threatened.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Caligastia
See, this is exactly what I am getting at. When large groups of people from a different cultural background move to the US, they naturally stick together. If large groups continue to move in to the same areas you eventually have a country within a country. How does this achieve "diversity"?

It doesn't if that's the way people choose to live. Nothing is stopping the people already in this country from segregating themselves from the rest of society. Some groups do it, others integrate. That's what freedom is about. Immigrants are no different.

It's reasonable that because immigrants choose to come, rather than just arbitrarily being born here, that they have a better appreciation for freedoms and diversity that exists in our country. Most of our segregated communities are not founded by immigrants, rather they have been entrenched by generational and economic pressures.

Perhaps selecting from a wider range of countries, but taking less immigrants from each would be better.

Thus the 1965 act. Instead of European immigrants being a huge percentage, every nationality was given the same priority.

[DanS]

Cal: There are downsides to racial mixing of one type or another. But there are also lots of positives accruing to society, which you would do well not to downplay. For instance, we enjoy the best of what India has to offer--dedicated and educated immigrants.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Caligastia
You seem to be confusing racial tension with racial equality. Racial equality does not necessarity equal less racial tension.

I wasn't claiming they were the same thing, but one leads to the other and vice versa. Can you honestly say you wouldn't have any adverse feelings towards someone who took away your rights? Can you honestly say you wouldn't get along better with someone who helped you regain them?

So because they only have a very limited experience of the people from the other race, their judgement is based on ignorance. The other problem is that when the minority race grows exponentially, they will also feel threatened.

It's the fear of the unknown instinct. Integration isn't going to just happen without some people feeling threatened. I don't think it's a good idea to stop integration just because some people are ignorant. Otherwise they'll never learn better, neither will their children.

[Aeson]

Bottom line is this- you may as well be some ants standing around arguing with each-over about what colour they will paint the sky- its simply not something for ants to decide.

A big part of this discussion is about immigration laws and how they affect society. I think you can see the effect humans have on those?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Neo-nazis can see positives in race mixing? News to me.

We've heard this all before. you say you're not a racist because you like blacks, some of your best friends are black, but then you start talking about how blacks are trash. You claim that can see positives in race mixing and then you advocate race based immigration policies because race mixing is dangerous. You're a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Originally posted by Caligastia
I never really made the statement. I just said it seems that way to me.

In other words, you didn't say exactly those words, but that's what you meant.

Originally posted by Caligastia
I just think that its in a nation's best interests to have common ideals.

So are you're saying that it is in the nation's best interests that everyone should have Christian ideals or do you want everyone to be Jewish? No rooms for moslems, pinkos, athiests, etc. Oh, and in your world there would be no room for Catholics, or do you want to get rid of the Protestents?

Is it in the best interests of a nation that everyone share the ideals of the Democractic Party, or is it the ideals of the Republican Party, or perhaps for you, the Nazi Party?

In your ideal world, there is no room for dissenting ideals. No room for different beliefs in how life should be lived. No individuality.

Originally posted by Caligastia
I said that for the best results race mixing should take place between the best specimens of each race.

Yes, we've heard it before. The Nazis tried to create what you wanted, only they tried to limit their world to a small group of European nations. You want to limit the world to a select few from the "right" races. How progressive of you.

And if someone is not the best, perfect specimen, well we know what you would do with them.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Caligastia


No its not. A race composed entirely of whites could benefit greatly from small mixtures from the best the other races have to offer. The ideal is to have a race composed of the best specimens of all races.

Ergo, the white race, by this rationale, is superior, as you only want "small mixtures" from the other races. Sounds like white supremacy to me.

Why are you so focused on creating the master...er, ideal race? Do you faovr eugenics then to weed out unfavorable racial characteristics? Which are the best specimens, and which are the less-than-best? Who judges that?

This is nothing less than another blatant bit of racial superiority masked as somehow promoting racial unity. Racial unity means all races cohabitating peacefully, not genetically manipulating your vaunted Ideal Race.

[SlowwHand]

Mixing races is a very bad idea.
Think of the turmoil involved in combining the Boston Marathon, Kentucky Derby, and Indy 500.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Mixing races is a very bad idea.
Think of the turmoil involved in combining the Boston Marathon, Kentucky Derby, and Indy 500.

A jumble of dead runners, horse parts and race car debris, bathed in smoke and flame...

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Aeson
Thus the 1965 act. Instead of European immigrants being a huge percentage, every nationality was given the same priority.

Actually I was applying that to the present. The 1965 act isnt really relevant to discussions of present-day solutions to immigrant groups isolating themselves from society IMO.

I wasn't claiming they were the same thing, but one leads to the other and vice versa. Can you honestly say you wouldn't have any adverse feelings towards someone who took away your rights? Can you honestly say you wouldn't get along better with someone who helped you regain them?

Sure, equal rights can be helpful to racial tensions, but racial tensions can be made worse when racial groups feel they have to compete with each other to gain what they see as "equal rights".

It's the fear of the unknown instinct. Integration isn't going to just happen without some people feeling threatened. I don't think it's a good idea to stop integration just because some people are ignorant. Otherwise they'll never learn better, neither will their children.

I think its more than ignorance. I think its naturally ingrained in us to feel threatened when a large number of strange people start moving into our societies. The question is whether this can be sufficiently corrected by integration or not.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by DanS
Cal: There are downsides to racial mixing of one type or another. But there are also lots of positives accruing to society, which you would do well not to downplay. For instance, we enjoy the best of what India has to offer--dedicated and educated immigrants.

I agree. There are many positives. You raise a good example.