What are the most powerful and influential countries?

[Saras]

Oops

[Saras]

Originally posted by Sikander

Forgive me if I don't bow down and thank the Soviets for saving Europe. They were happy enough to ally with the Nazis in order to gobble up as much territory as they could, and were dragged into the war against Germany completely against their will. The fact that they used the opportunity to again grab as much territory as they could again shows how selfish their behavior was at all times.

EXACTLY!

[Heresson]

" It was the roughly 50/50 army of Poland and Lithuania that crushed the teutons at Grunwald [Tannenberg]. In fact, the cunning maneuver of faked retreat and the resulting slaughter of the whole right flank of the Teuton army by Grand Duke Vytautas of Lithuania was the decider of the battle, when the central Polish line was already starting to falter.

The army got drunk afterwards on all the Burgundy the Teutons brought with them to celebrate , thus giving von Plauen (to whom command devolved after von Jungingen was killed in battle) three days to regroup and fortify in Marienberg.

It pisses me off when pollacks steal our history."

The false retreat of Lithuanians is just theory. Another says that You escaped for real. i have never heard of Lithuanians coming back to the battle later... Anyway later You backed off from the war, happy with ?mud?, and we had to lead next wars with TK ourselves.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Heresson
The false retreat of Lithuanians is just theory. Another says that You escaped for real. i have never heard of Lithuanians coming back to the battle later... Anyway later You backed off from the war, happy with ?mud?, and we had to lead next wars with TK ourselves.

What TK afterwards? There was no real threat from them after Grunwald to speak of.

And the retreat is not theory, but a maneuver Vytautas learned from his Tatar tutors. Can you really expect a fleeing army to think twice in the middle of fleeing and then returning to battle?

If you've never heard of the Lithuanian return later to the battle you have not been listening. Read your own historical sources (Dlugosz and others), not some tripe pushed by revisionist historians with a small penis complex.

Aren't Grunwald battle charts with the Vytautas maneuver a given? Funny how you pollacks always want to keep our victories to yourselves, while it is Lithuania that stood at the core of Rzecpospolitas military.

[Heresson]

Aren't Grunwald battle charts with the Vytautas maneuver a given? Funny how you pollacks always want to keep our victories to yourselves, while it is Lithuania that stood at the core of Rzecpospolitas military.

That is really funny. You have shown your military spirit while fighting with Moscow many times... You always needed Polish help.
But that's nothing we should quarrel about.
Lets talk about it as a one country;
You know very good that name "Poland" is ment as all Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth.

[Saras]

--"You have shown your military spirit while fighting with Moscow many times"

Huh? Tell me about it. I know we burned that village down like five times in ten years or something

I know Poland is meant as the Rzecpospolita; it pisses me off that Lithuania is commonly accepted as an appendix to Poland rather than a member of a voluntary federation of nations.

And we should have crowned Vytautas after Grunwald as King of Lithuania - that would have kept us a lean mean fighting machine as opposed to the "veto-democracy" of the Rzecpospolita that became unable to wage any war against the Muscovite threat.

So there

[Heresson]

"Huh? Tell me about it. I know we burned that village down like five times in ten years or something

Perhaps, but Vilnius was also burned once or twice...

"I know Poland is meant as the Rzecpospolita; it pisses me off that Lithuania is commonly accepted as an appendix to Poland rather than a member of a voluntary federation of nations.
Well You know originally it WAS supposed to be "addition" to Poland. And anyway You were polonised. If someone calls a Libyan
Arab he doesn't mean he is inferior to Saudi Arabia...

"And we should have crowned Vytautas after Grunwald as King of Lithuania - that would have kept us a lean mean fighting machine as opposed to the "veto-democracy" of the Rzecpospolita that became unable to wage any war against the Muscovite threat.

If you crowned Witold, that would be a rebellion against Gradn duke Jagiello and
Vytautas would have to be thrown out of the throne and Lithuania incorporated into
Poland
And anyway, I don't know how it would be supposed to help You... You would loose Polish help, and be left alone against all your enemies. I doubt You'd survive.

[Serb]

Most of those 24,000 were destroyed in the battles of annihilation (Kiev, Vyazma, etc.). Further, the US produced many more, and further, the Brits sent Lend Lease too.

Are you trying to say that during WW2 USA produced more tanks then USSR?

The Soviets survived because of the West.

This is a typical American bullsh!t.

[Serb]

Doubt that. You, Russians, have or at least had up till revolution no tradition of defending own beliefs, just to obey tzar. Of course some would rebel, but I doubt they would gain any significant power. Peter I could do with You what he wanted. Alexander would be able to do it too

You know Russians less then I expected. The Orthodox Church always was one of the ‘driving forces’ for Russia. It’s part of our traditions, our way of life. I can’t even think seriously that ANY of Russian tsars EVER even thought about conversion to Catholicism

It's your big problem, Serb, and that's why Apolyton communists should hate You. You are representing "odchylenie prawicowo-nacjonalistyczne wewnatrz komunizmu", You are uniting communism and nationalism, and that's really bad thing to do.

No one ever call me an ultra-right nationalist, you are the first. And of course this is not true.

Anyway, such thinking, that Russia and USSR is the same, was one of the factors that destroyed USSR

Sure SU was the same Russian Empire just with new tsars and new religion (atheism).

They weren't ready for that. They were forced to do that.

Oh sure they were forced to sacrifice their lives, because they wanted to win, they wanted to save their families and they wanted to protect their country from invaders.


Vlasov was the ****!ng traitor who wanted to save his ass when he was captured by nazi. This dog is disgrace of his country.

Yes, if they use it in battle though it's falling apart and dangerous for human beings.

Hey, Americans where are you? This guy just said that US Navy is a crap!!! What a heresy.

You are better - a bit

Thank you very much. I’m so glad that you think so.

You know very well that UN won't support anyone against major powers.

Oh look!!!
First we were losers without any political influence, now we are one of the major powers.
What a progress!!!

Anyway Russia is a FEDERATION.

Exactly. That’s why this claim is nonsense-

Tchechenians are in their own land, in which they have lived - before Russians came there.

This land is part of Russian FEDERATION. Chechnya always was and always be a subject of FEDERATION. And before we leave it in 1996 there lived many other nationalities, lived for centuries.

Anyway if they wanted freedom they have it for more then 3 years. So what did they done? Perhaps they build a single school? NO. Perhaps they build a single hospital? NO. Note that even consider bad shape of Russian economy and “de facto” independence of Chechnya for period of 1996-1999 Russian government constantly paid a huge amount of money to Chechnya as war reparations. What did they done then, how they spent those money?
Let’s see.
They established a fundamentalist state based on terrible, inhuman medieval laws, they made hundreds of terrorist’s acts in many cities of Russia killing thousands of civilians (notice: after they already WON their war for independence), they stole thousands of citizens of Russia and hundreds of foreign citizens for ransom and for (now please read very carefully) for SLAVERY, slaves in XX century!!! Can you imagine this? (You are lucky that you didn’t saw eyes of 11 years old Israel’s boy who was liberated by our Speznaz in Chechnya, he has almost no fingers on his palms. Those bastards cut off his fingers and send it to Israel for his parents to receive a ransom. You are lucky that you didn’t saw the eyes of those people, those was the same eyes the prisoners of nazi death camps has). They hired a new army of mercenaries; they created hundreds of terrorist’s training camps, hundreds of bases, hideouts, ammo deposits. And finally they invaded a neighbor Dagestan. Doing this, they declared war against Russian Federation and they lost this war. If some bastards attacking us we usually destroy those bastards. We have right to defend ourselves and no one can take this right from us. Our army brings constitutional order in Chechnya, it brings human’s rights and freedoms there. No one cut off palms of criminals there now, no one burn people alive because they are Christians, the people have right to elect and to be elected and any other freedoms the other citizens of Russian Federation have.

Those wasn't an action of Tchechenian gouverment.

Sure it was. Who do you think Basayev was? The minister of this so-called government.

That's the theory of Mickiewicz in fact

Really?
I thought it’s my one theory, I don’t know this guy Mickiewicz. Who is he?
[Warning, just kidding] Anyway, great minds think alike. [Warning, just kidding]
I think this is not a big deal to see the connection between the word “Slava” and the word “Slavyane”.

Again, when it comes to Russian military, it usually doesn't have anything to do with skill, but number.

Then I’ll refresh your memory. Is the name of Alexandr Suvorov didn’t tell you about anything?

In fact You did. You showed us them as one of the interveniants. In another words, they were rebelled province of yours that You had right to anect, just like Tchechenia.

The foreign intervention during Russian Civil war and the ‘Winter war’ is absolutely different wars. Don’t you think so?

Again I dare to ask You to remember what I wrote; Polish army had orders not to fight with You.

You don’t need to repeat this. I knew it when you said it first time. When Soviets went through Poland there almost was no resistance.

Forgotten about one thing. Serb. If You feel so bad about Jecyn, why do You like Putin, he's chosen one...? After all such a bad guy coudn't do anything right, especially choose a good prime minister and next president. Or didn't he choose Putin but Putin forced him to resign

I think this is the only good thing this bad guy done. And actually I didn’t trust to Putin when he was a prime minister only because Yeltsin liked him. I didn’t vote for Putin. Now I’m regret about this, he is the good man.

[Serb]

You are mistaken, Slavs have existed for a lot longer than the Roman Empire. Here's a Russian site for you with the pertinent information:

They were not called a “Slavs” at this time. Nomadic tribes like «Skifs» – the ancestors of Slavs, the one who populated the lands, which were later populated by Slavs. Herodotus used the word “Skifs” in V century B.C. for description of all tribes, which populated the territories of Eastern Europe.

WORD HISTORY:
The derivation of the word slave encapsulates a bit of European history and explains why the two words slaves and Slavs are so similar; they are, in fact, historically identical. The word slave first appears in English around 1290, spelled sclave. The spelling is based on Old French esclave from Medieval Latin sclavus, "Slav, slave," first recorded around 800. Sclavus comes from Byzantine Greek sklabos (pronounced sklavs) "Slav," which appears around 580.

Well if talk is about 800, then yes Slavs already existed at this time and there were Slav's cities, but there were many Slav’s tribes each one of them has it’s one name like “polyane”, “drevlyane”, “Mazovshane, “Vyatichy”, “Radichy” etc. And I want to ask one question. Is there was no slavery before this time? Is there were no slaves and there was no word for slave in Latin language before this time?

Sklavos approximates the Slavs' own name for themselves…

Not even a close. Our own name for ourselves is “slavyane” and it’s pretty clear for me that it’s originated from word “slava”.

Ìåíÿ ïî÷òè óáåäèëè (SASA íà ÂÈÔ), ÷òî ñîâð. àíãë. slave ïðîèñõîäèò îò èìåíè ñëàâÿí:

I don’t know this guy, but even he said “you are almost, ALMOST convinced me”, not “I’m pretty sure now that I was mistaken”.
I really can’t debate about the origin of word ‘slave’ in your language, because I don’t know your language good enough and I’m not a linguist and because it’s a little boring.

I’ll better return to provocation, such as:

Forgive me if I don't bow down and thank the Soviets for saving Europe. They were happy enough to ally with the Nazis in order to gobble up as much territory as they could, and were dragged into the war against Germany completely against their will. The fact that they used the opportunity to again grab as much territory as they could again shows how selfish their behavior was at all times.

Just notice, Stalin used opportunity to return former Russian provinces to Russia. Those lands belonged to Russian Empire before the revolution, civil war and your allied intervention.
*Running away*

[Serb]

Originally posted by Saras


EXACTLY!

*returns*
Almost forget, one more thing,
Sure for you it was better to stay under nazi’s rule. You really loved those guys.
Sure why not? You weren’t a “non-humans” for them; you joined them in their war against Russians. You want to “de juro” rehabilitate SS veterans in your country, while “de facto” you already rehabilitated them.
Nice going guys.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Heresson
Lets talk about it as a one country;
You know very good that name "Poland" is ment as all Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth.

from Saras
--"You have shown your military spirit while fighting with Moscow many times"

Huh? Tell me about it. I know we burned that village down like five times in ten years or something

Aha,vse lyahtichi v sbore.
Ladno glumites dalshe.
My vas imeli I imet budem!!! Vecno.


a te kto s nami ne soglasen puskai zarubyat na nosu,
dlya nas lubov i bibliya i pishya,
no mozhem dat i polizu,
Zaaaaaaaaaaa rodnoe Katmanduuuuuuuuu..

popribuite eshe raz spolit nashu stoilzu, i vam malo ne pokazhetsya eto ya vam mogu garantirovat.

[Olegus]

Originally posted by Serb
quote: The Soviets survived because of the West.
This is a typical American bullsh!t.

Well, the West "lend-lease" assisted a lot to SU in first two years of war (1941-1942(3)). And I am Russian, deeply appriciated to UK, USA people who support us in very hard moment.
Brains were washed in both countries (SU & USA). In fact, we win together. Allies economical/technological power + SU sacrifying army.
btw, SU needed badly second front, we expected it much earlier...
I agree that "many soviet people survived because of West", that's true. In the same time, many US/USA soldiers and europeans were survived because of Russia.
So, guys don't be silly.
About, first topic. I would like to see Russia second in list, but we need to fight for this position. I write "fight", but I don't mean bloody war - I mean trade and economics growth. Perhaps, trade wars, like last one "Chicken vs Steel"

Regards.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Serb



This land is part of Russian FEDERATION. Chechnya always was and always be a subject of FEDERATION. And before we leave it in 1996 there lived many other nationalities, lived for centuries.

Anyway if they wanted freedom they have it for more then 3 years. So what did they done? Perhaps they build a single school? NO. Perhaps they build a single hospital? NO. Note that even consider bad shape of Russian economy and “de facto” independence of Chechnya for period of 1996-1999 Russian government constantly paid a huge amount of money to Chechnya as war reparations. What did they done then, how they spent those money?
Let’s see.
They established a fundamentalist state based on terrible, inhuman medieval laws, they made hundreds of terrorist’s acts in many cities of Russia killing thousands of civilians (notice: after they already WON their war for independence), they stole thousands of citizens of Russia and hundreds of foreign citizens for ransom and for (now please read very carefully) for SLAVERY, slaves in XX century!!! Can you imagine this? (You are lucky that you didn’t saw eyes of 11 years old Israel’s boy who was liberated by our Speznaz in Chechnya, he has almost no fingers on his palms. Those bastards cut off his fingers and send it to Israel for his parents to receive a ransom. You are lucky that you didn’t saw the eyes of those people, those was the same eyes the prisoners of nazi death camps has). They hired a new army of mercenaries; they created hundreds of terrorist’s training camps, hundreds of bases, hideouts, ammo deposits. And finally they invaded a neighbor Dagestan. Doing this, they declared war against Russian Federation and they lost this war. If some bastards attacking us we usually destroy those bastards. We have right to defend ourselves and no one can take this right from us. Our army brings constitutional order in Chechnya, it brings human’s rights and freedoms there. No one cut off palms of criminals there now, no one burn people alive because they are Christians, the people have right to elect and to be elected and any other freedoms the other citizens of Russian Federation have.

Sure it was. Who do you think Basayev was? The minister of this so-called government.

Serb, et al., While there may be some exaggeration here, after we learned more about the Taliban, I suspect there is a lot that you say that is not an exaggeration.

Islamic fundamentalism is a real threat to civilization. It is not simply a religion. It is extremely aggressive political movement and is making war on the civilized world.

To some who believe that Osama bin Laden is all about Israel, the Russian experience in Chechnya is a wake up call. This is a world problem. We are under attack.

Ned

[Akka]

Originally posted by Ned
Islamic fundamentalism is a real threat to civilization. It is not simply a religion. It is extremely aggressive political movement and is making war on the civilized world.

Any fundamentalism and fanatism is a threat to civilization and a treason of the religion it is supposed to serve.