What are the most powerful and influential countries?

[KrazyHorse]

That's okay: you exist only for us to look down on.

[loinburger]

I would never in million years have expected to see Russian chest-thumping on a thread like this!

[TCO]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
That's okay: you exist only for us to look down on.

Doesn't matter. We still have bama...

[Serb]

Originally posted by Heresson
Kiev wasn't, but princedom of Rurykowicze was.
It is commonly known that Ruryk was Scandinavian.

I never deny that princedom of Rurik was a variag (a viking). That's what I mean when I said that -
" As for Vikings,
I don't know how to explain it properly, but some of those early medival states indeed asked for Vikings to be their rulers. And Viking's princes agreed to rule those states, but Vikings didn't found those states (cities) they already existed during centuries."


Three was three brothers: Rurick, Sineus and Truvor. The only source about those events is a first Russian chronicle called "Povest vremennyh let" (It's very hard to translate this on English). According to this document, Rurik is one of the three brothers (Rurik, Sineus, Truvor) whom the Novgorodian Slavs invited in to stop intestine wars. Rurik settled with the Ilmen Slavs, Sineus - between the Chud and Vesi on Beloozero, Truvor - with the Krivichi in Izborg.
It is known that Rurick was a Variag (Viking), it is known that he is a founder of Rurickvich's dynasty, it is known that he become a prince of Novgorod, BUT no one know nothing about two very important things: 1)WHO was he before he become a prince. 2) How he become a prince.

1) Who was he?
a) He was a chief of Viking's tribe.
Then why after he become a ruler of Slav's cities he did'nt add those very rich Slav's lands to land's of his Viking's tribe?
b) He was a leader of band of wandering Vikings. The leader of non-organised military expedition. Such bandsof Vikings existed and pilaged cities all over Europe. Those bands were well known by their surprise attacks and by their pilages of defeated cities and cruel murders of citizens of those cities.
Using the factor of surprise attack he might capture one city easily, other cities prepared a defence. Also in that case he should faced a great resistance, because everyone known what Vikings do with defeated enemies. But he took cities without ANY battles, without any resistance. So version of conqest could be easealy denied.
C) He was a mercenary of the city of Novgorod.

In that case he might already lose all conections with his Viking's tribe and his military band might include people from different tribes, from different Viking's tribes and Slav's tribes.

2) How he become a prince of Novgorod?

a) This version based on first Russian cronicle "Povest vremennyh let": The citizens of Slav's cities themselves asked him to become a ruler of their cities.
Then again why those Slav's cities was not annexed by Rurick's tribe and those land's was not added to land's of Rurick's tribe?
b) He took those cities by force.
Why those cities was not pilaged? Why there was no mass murders of citizens of those cities and why there was no any resistance?
c) Rurick as being a leader of mercinary band hired by Novgorod, due his brave behavior and personality or because of political conspiracy was legetimely elected by "Veche" or by other more wide meeting of Novgorod's citizens to be a prince of Novgorod.
In this case as being a legetimely ruler he can easily took other cities.

You kept it with biggest effort and only with help of other states involved in Polish matters.

Biggest effort?
What a bullsh!t, the biggest effort for R.E. to hold a territory was the Cuacas. You didn't make a 1/100 part of Caucasus attempt to gain freedom. And you dare to speek about Polish superior military spirit you remained serfs of R.E. for about 100 years.
Voiny huyevy.

Bolsheviks were much more dangerous than old and pathethic tzarate.

It doesn't change the fact that only because of them you took freedom from Russia.

I guess Trocki and Stalin were marching on Warsaw to hand it over to us...

If only Budenny was fallow the orders of Tukhachevskiy, then Poland become 16 republic of SU. Its his stupidness what saved your asses this time.

No, Russia attacked us.

Oh, sure.
Poor, peacefull Polish panovy. Allways a victims.

Poland was in even worse situation than Russia. And it managed to defeat You.

It's realy interesting to hear how it was in worse condition then Russia, why you joined the intervention against Russia if so.

Yes. Poland.

Why I'm not surprised that it was Poland?

During Swedish flood, we were fighting with every our neighbour and though

During civil war? How many neighbours?

Anyway, most of the interveniants were either too far from You to fight effectively,

Germany, Austria, Great Britain, France, USA and Japan sure is weak countries and pathetic warriors. Say it to Brits or to French that they can fight efficently on big distances. (Notice, I'm not included the rest of intervents like Chehz, Finns, Baltic states, Ruminya and Poland).

Do You count f.e. Armenians as a great threat to Russia's souvereignity?

WTF is f.e.?

Only with help of Germany. There's no way that Poland could loose a war with USSR only in 1939.

That's why Red army didn't faced any serious resistanse?
Western Ukraine, Western Belorussia and Bessorabia isn't a Russian lands? Fine. Next thing youl say will be that Brest is the Polish city.

Yes. You see, You have to treat it all having some proportions; Polish base is pretty small, still we managed to conquer for a shorter or longer times enormous territories. Russia has enormous base, and it has difficulties with conquering smallest nations.

You, Russians, are in a very comfortable situation. Nothing to the north, pesky, but not lasting for long enemies on the east and south, little nations to the west.

What a nice pice of pure bullsh!t.
Do you realize that is super sillyness to think that Russia always was so huge country as it is now? You think that core Russia- the Moskovie state is a enormous base?

You couldn't anect much smaller Poland or Finland by yourselves. You have no militaryspirit, it's just about your number. As in ww2, your armies weren't doing any good job.You just have luck You are so big. You are like an elephant that is almost killed by a bee.There were Russian forces prepaired for war (with Belgium), and Poles managed to kick your ass many times and not be defeated until Ostroleka battle, which changed everything.

All your speeches are just a whine of looser, all those " we were always stronger, we were always better, we always kicked your asses, we always win wars, but then something happens, the luck turned away from us and you win, it's all about luck". Look at map to realize what remains from your Emipre now, and think about how this happen that so superior (as you beleive) Poles live today in small country, and why so pathetic (as you beleive) Russians living today in the largest country of the World.

Anyway, in year 1830, the part of Poland under tzar/king rule was like a fly compared to Russia.

You will always like a fly in compare with Russia.
Suuuckkkkeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeers.

[Serb]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Fact is, if Russia wants you screwed, you ARE screwed

Exactly!

[Serb]

Originally posted by Ned
Serb, et al., I found this on the web. Do you agree with it?

See my reply to Heresson.

Just whant to add about Kiev and Ascold and Dir. As I remember you said that Kiev was founded by Vikings, that's not true.

"Passing by, they saw the town on the hill and asked, "Who does this town belong to?". And they (the inhabitants) said, "Three brothers - Kyj, Shchek and Khoryv made this town and left. We are sitting in their town and paying the tribute to the Khasars. So Askold and Dir, two of them were left in this town, and gathered many Variags, and acquired the land of Polyany".

"Russian Chronicle by Ipaty Manuscript", about 862.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Sikander
Perhaps you can explain why Ros is the name of a Swedish tribe and not of Slavic origin?

Perhaps you can explain why Vikings in their core land, in Scandinavia for taxes used word "poludye" the word of Slav's origine, originated from Slav's words "lud" which means "men" (btw, in modern Russian it have the same meaning) and word "po" in that case it have the meaning- "every". The word "Poludye" used by Slav's for taxes, why Vikings don't have the word for taxes and used Slav's word if they were much more advanced as you think.

You are not descended from Vikings, your state was founded by Vikings and ruled and influenced by them for several hundred years.

At least you realize that Slavs are not decendents of Vikings.
As for influence, I do not deny it.

They taught you about the world outside of the forest.

Oh really?
When Variags (that's how we call a Vikings) apeared, there were a dozen of big Slav's cities. We do not lived in forests as you try to portray us.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Ned
I find it very interesting that a citizen of Russia does not know his own history -- or that he denies it.

I think that persons who think that Slavs are decendents of Vikings and that Kiev was founded by Vikings don't know much about our history.

[Serb]

Originally posted by loinburger
I would never in million years have expected to see Russian chest-thumping on a thread like this!

Why?
Do you think that only Americans could chest-thumping in treads?
Some Russians are no less arrogant bastards.

[Heresson]

"Heresson, now you seem to resemble Luke a lot. I thought of you as a much more moderate Pole. "

I am. My intention is to say that Russia owes its might to her geographical location
and what comes out of it, to the number of her citizens, and that's no reason to boast
as Serb does. Serb thinks all lands on the east of Poland are Russian.

You will always like a fly in compare with Russia.
Suuuckkkkeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeers.

Suckers with money, not wardrobes or panties as a payment


All your speeches are just a whine of looser, all those " we were always stronger, we were always better, we always kicked your asses, we always win wars, but then something happens, the luck turned away from us and you win, it's all about luck".

no. It's not about luck. It's about geography. I never said anything about luck.

You think that core Russia- the Moskovie state is a enormous base?

it' much bigger than Polish base, still,
and we lost our richest provinces to Germany

That's why Red army didn't faced any serious resistanse?

In another thread You can see the answer;
Poles were ordered not to fight with Soviets. Only citizens of Grodno welcomed
Soviet tansk with baricades and they were executed by being runned over by the tanks
(You barbarians), and though the city actually should belong to Poland after ww2
(according to Curzon line), Stalin didn't accept that.

Western Ukraine, Western Belorussia and Bessorabia isn't a Russian lands?

No. It's Ukrainian, Byelorussian and Romanian land.

Fine. Next thing youl say will be that Brest is the Polish city.

It is a Polish city, of course.

WTF is f.e.?

for example.

Germany, Austria, Great Britain, France, USA and Japan sure is weak countries and pathetic warriors.

Austria and Germany were crumbling.
USA was loosing interest in this region
(vide Armenia case), Japan is very far from the core of Russia. France and Great Britain
are too far to fight with You effectively.

Say it to Brits or to French that they can fight efficently on big distances. (Notice, I'm not included the rest of intervents like Chehz, Finns, Baltic states, Ruminya and Poland).

It's all because You treat all lands belonging to the tzarate as Russian lands. This way every try to get free from your occupation is "foreign intervention"

During civil war? How many neighbours?

yes, during civil war and after a serie of other wars and civil wars.. Enemies;
-Swedes, Russians with Cossacks,
Tatars of Crimea, Romanians, Brandernburgians, Prussians.
All strong and next to us, not behind the seventh sea.

It's realy interesting to hear how it was in worse condition then Russia, why you joined the intervention against Russia if so.

It wasn't intervention, it was fight for freedom. We didn't want lands where there were no Poles. In fact, we resigned of several regions in Byelorussia, Latvia and Ukraine where Poles were large minority
though USSR and Latvia offered it to us.
Unlike You, we never were greedy. A-ha.
You never paid us promised contributios.


Oh, sure.
Poor, peacefull Polish panovy. Allways a victims.

Not always, but most often. And this time for sure.

If only Budenny was fallow the orders of Tukhachevskiy, then Poland become 16 republic of SU. Its his stupidness what saved your asses this time.

You see! You can't fight properly.

It doesn't change the fact that only because of them you took freedom from Russia.

Not quite. If You haven't lost Poland to Germany during Iww...

Biggest effort?
What a bullsh!t, the biggest effort for R.E. to hold a territory was the Cuacas. You didn't make a 1/100 part of Caucasus attempt to gain freedom. And you dare to speek about Polish superior military spirit you remained serfs of R.E. for about 100 years.
Voiny huyevy.

Caucasus is mountains, it's much easier to fight there. And again, I encourage You to read what I wrote earlier.

Fact is, if Russia wants you screwed, you ARE screwed

Not quite. But if Turkey wants You screwed, You are screwed ;P
Russia wanted us screwed many times until
1795 and it failed. It failed after ww1 too.
Russia can screw itself.

and poludye - perhaps they were taking taxes from Slavs. From Russians...

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Auto-congratulation ...

[Serb]

Originally posted by Heresson
I am. My intention is to say that Russia owes its might to her geographical location and what comes out of it, to the number of her citizens, and that's no reason to boast as Serb does. Serb thinks all lands on the east of Poland are Russian.

No you are not, you are just like Luke. All you Poles are the same- a Russia-haters. Jealos Polsh panovy, who apolgaise that they were unable to destroy Russia when they had opportunity.

Suckers with money, not wardrobes or panties as a payment

Still,
Suuckeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrss.
Without nukes, spaceships and any political influence.

no. It's not about luck. It's about geography. I never said anything about luck.

A quote originaly posted by Heresson: "You just have luck You are so big. "
"There were Russian forces prepaired for war (with Belgium), and Poles managed to kick your ass many times and not be defeated until Ostroleka battle, which changed everything. "

it' much bigger than Polish base, still, and we lost our richest provinces to Germany

All your claims about good geografical position of core Russia as for me sounds like looser's whine. At the down of our history we was not big and we have no big population.
You have lost your riches provinces to Germany?
Oh, no what a tragedy, poor Poles.
Do have any idea how many times Russia was invaded by foreign conquers? Don't you realize the fact that Russia formed as united country only after we kicked Mongol's asses after almost 300 years of their ocuppation of our lands?

In another thread You can see the answer;
Poles were ordered not to fight with Soviets. Only citizens of Grodno welcomed Soviet tansk with baricades and they were executed by being runned over by the tanks (You barbarians), and though the city actually should belong to Poland after ww2
(according to Curzon line), Stalin didn't accept that.

Barbarians you can see everytime when you walk on Warsaw's streets. I know nothing about things you described about Russian atrocities in Grodno, may be it's only my lack of knowledge (more lickely a Polish propaganda), but I'm absolutely sure that your invasion forces at begining of XVII acted like real barbarians- burn cities, killed womens, chilldren and elders.

No. It's Ukrainian, Byelorussian and Romanian land.

That's why you took those land? Because you have more right for those lands then Ukrainians and Belorussians. Both of those republic was two of the 4 founders of Soviet Union. If you took those lands it means that you took Soviet's land. That's why it's intervention.

It is a Polish city, of course.

No comments.

for example.

Thanks for explanation.

Austria and Germany were crumbling. USA was loosing interest in this region (vide Armenia case), Japan is very far from the core of Russia. France and Great Britain are too far to fight with You effectively.

I don't want to waste my time. You deny pure facts, you call those countries a weak warriors or too distanced from Russia. It's a bullsh!t. Show me more powerfull countries of those times or more greater colonial powers (who by defenition have a huge experience of wars with distanced enemy).

It's all because You treat all lands belonging to the tzarate as Russian lands. This way every try to get free from your occupation is "foreign intervention"

Don't twist facts.
Now you gone say that there was no foreign intervention after Bolshevik's revolution.

yes, during civil war and after a serie of other wars and civil wars.. Enemies;-Swedes, Russians with Cossacks, Tatars of Crimea, Romanians, Brandernburgians, Prussians. All strong and next to us, not behind the seventh sea.

Wich years? I guess you are talking about beggining of XVIII century?

It wasn't intervention, it was fight for freedom. We didn't want lands where there were no Poles. In fact, we resigned of several regions in Byelorussia, Latvia and Ukraine where Poles were large minority though USSR and Latvia offered it to us.

You might call it anyhow, nbut as for me if someone comes to my country with arms to concqer it, then it's called an intervention.

Unlike You, we never were greedy. A-ha.

Poles are perhaps the most greedy people I ever so in my life. Russians never was greedy, sometimes I consider this as disadvantage.

You never paid us promised contributios.

We never will pay to you any contributions.

Not always, but most often. And this time for sure.

If you said always, then I consider you as insane person.

You see! You can't fight properly.

I said "it save your asses this time", and it's true. But in perspective you suck as warriors in compare with us.

Not quite. If You haven't lost Poland to Germany during Iww...

Enlighten me please when we lost Poland durinng WWI, in wich year?

Caucasus is mountains, it's much easier to fight there. And again, I encourage You to read what I wrote earlier.

I talking about resistance not about actual conquest. When we conqered Caucasus there was a lt of resistance there for decades. You remained as province of Russia without such resistance.

Not quite. But if Turkey wants You screwed, You are screwed ;P

*waiting for Paiktis*

Russia wanted us screwed many times until 1795 and it failed. It failed after ww1 too.

But then they didn't failed and made Poland a province.
Poles wanted to screwed us many times, but they always failed and will always fail.

Russia can screw itself.

That true.
No one can screw Russia exept Russia itself.

and poludye - perhaps they were taking taxes from Slavs. From Russians...

No, perhaps they known nothing about taxes and learn it from Slav's.

[Pekka]

Uhh what a fight! between Poland and Russia. Are we talking about your whole histories, or what period of time? I'm confused. I don't really know the history between your relations, but the main stuff (i'm arrogant ).

But come on, face it, you both suck .

[Serb]

Oh,
One more representaive of another former Russian province arrived.
Welcome to our club.

[Pekka]

Thanks. I feel good to be here. Very welcomed.
Of course, i could tell you about the truth, so your statement about us being really former province of Russia wouldn't be quite true.. But i'll save you all, my theories are sometimes hard to follow .
Anyway Heresson, your mighty warriors just failed miserably yesterday, ending the epic battle 8-0.. for finns .