What are the most powerful and influential countries?

[Ned]

Paiktis22, As you correctly observe, the U.S. "selectively" intervenes in local affairs of other countries to protect its interests. In the case of Afghanistan, we would have let it continue in civil war indefinitely - but Osama bin Laden forced our hand. Our intervention had nothing whatsoever to do with oil.

Ned

[Bereta_Eder]

That's all I'm saying.

I can't remember any american victory anywhere.

Even in WW2 the ones who took the bulk of the fight and saved Europe from the Nazis were again the Russians. (of course they were just fighting their enemy, but in their free time they saved Europe too).

It is high time you get off your high horse. Your "antipathy" towards people like Russians or French, just because you have conflicting interests, makes you look repulsive.

Russians and French have a history you can not ever hope to match.

Instead of getting involved in a piss fight and show how small hearted and insecure you are, it would be better to start reading some non american newspapers.

I have never seen people more brainwashed than some Americans here.

To condemn others of being brainwashed, others whose accomplishments over the centuries overpass yours by light years is one of the most ironic things I have ever encountered.

But, hey, it's just me and according to you I'm an anti-american (one of the billions really)

[Heresson]

"Not a chance.
We are Orthodox people since 988, if I remember the date correctly. Any attempt of Alexander or any other tsar to convert country to Catholicism would end as a religious war.

Doubt that. You, Russians, have or at least had up till revolution no tradition of defending own beliefs, just to obey tzar. Of course some would rebel, but I doubt they would gain any significant power. Peter I could do with You what he wanted. Alexander would be able to do it too.

"No matter, it?s the same.

It's your big problem, Serb, and that's why Apolyton com
munists should hate You. You are representing "odchylenie prawicowo-nacjonalistyczne wewnatrz komunizmu", You are uniting communism and nationalism, and that's really bad thing to do. Anyway, such thinking, that Russia and USSR is the same, was one of the factors that destroyed USSR.

"Readiness to sacrifice your life for your country is the part of military spirit as I see it.

They weren't ready for that. They were forced to do that. Anyway Wlasow was also willing to sacrifice his life for his Russia.

" The Mir was a space station not a cake. If you can still use an old tool for your missions, then why you should spent huge amount of money and build new tools?
Americans still using WWII Iowa- class battleships in their navy. So what, they are eating a decayed cake?

Yes, if they use it in battle though it's falling apart and dangerous for human beings.

" *Waiting for Luke?s-like Mongol who will apology that Mongols didn?t destroyed an unintelligent, militaristic Russian civilization and let them grow.*


It's You who is now saying that You are worse then Mongols. You are better - a bit


" Of course they wanted to crush revolution, but they signed the pact by which Russia was divided between them on zones of interests.

Now I can believe in THAT though I'm not so sure, still; notice, to partage a state and to divide it into spheres of interests is sth different.

"No.
Chechnya is part of Russia. Show me one UN resolution were it is said that Chechnya is an independent state/ was an independent state/ have right to be an independent state.

You know very well that UN won't support
anyone against major powers.

"If tomorrow part of Krakow?s population decide to be an independent state and will declare war against Poland, would you support those people in their war?

Tchechenians are in their own land, in which they have lived - before Russians came there. You cannot compare it to any part of Poland. We lost all that we could in the east, and are autochtons to the west,
Anyway Russia is a FEDERATION

"Exactly.
The attack on Dagestan was a break of limits for us. Those terrorists started the second war, not we are. And they lost this war.

Those wasn't an action of Tchechenian gouverment.

"On Russian or any other Slav?s language the Slav?s people are called ?Slavyane? I guess it?s originated from word ?slava? which means ?glory? and ?slavyane? means- ?glorious people?.

That's the theory of Mickiewicz in fact

"Come and get us if you are so strong and brave.
Germans, Brits or French already tried this and every time they thought that our military is a crap and that it could be easily destroyed. Every time they ended beaten by this ?crap? army and running from our country like a beaten dog.

Again, when it comes to Russian military, it usually doesn't have anything to do with skill, but number.

"Who told you that I think that Soviet invasion in Finland was Ok?
I've never said this.

In fact You did. You showed us them as one of the interveniants. In another words, they were rebelled province of yours that You had right to anect, just like Tchechenia.

"quote:
<http://apolyton.net/b.gif>
The Poles threw you out in the 1920s.
<http://apolyton.net/b.gif>

1939.

Again I dare to ask You to remember what I wrote; Polish army had orders not to fight with You. In fact my grandma told me that major of her city, the first one to be occupied by You, went out with bred and salt to You because he thought You wish to help us fighting the nazis. He was wrong,
You were allies of nazis at this time.

[Heresson]

Forgotten about one thing. Serb. If You feel so bad about Jecyn, why do You like Putin, he's chosen one...? After all such a bad guy coudn't
do anything right, especially choose a good
prime minister and next president. Or didn't
he choose Putin but Putin forced him to resign? If so, is Russia democracy or sth else?

[Ned]

Originally posted by paiktis22
That's all I'm saying.

I can't remember any american victory anywhere.

Even in WW2 the ones who took the bulk of the fight and saved Europe from the Nazis were again the Russians. (of course they were just fighting their enemy, but in their free time they saved Europe too).

It is high time you get off your high horse. Your "antipathy" towards people like Russians or French, just because you have conflicting interests, makes you look repulsive.

Russians and French have a history you can not ever hope to match.

Instead of getting involved in a piss fight and show how small hearted and insecure you are, it would be better to start reading some non american newspapers.

I have never seen people more brainwashed than some Americans here.

To condemn others of being brainwashed, others whose accomplishments over the centuries overpass yours by light years is one of the most ironic things I have ever encountered.

But, hey, it's just me and according to you I'm an anti-american (one of the billions really)

I don't think even the Russians believe they could have won WWII without American intervention. We certainly "helped."

As to history, the U.S. beat Mexico and took California. We beat Spain and liberated Cuba, Puerto Rico and the Philipines.

We virtually single-handedly beat Japan and freed China, Korea and all of SE Asia.

Desert Storm was an American victory. Kuwait is free.

I hope that next war in Iraq results in the liberation of Kurdistan.

America has been a tremedous force for freedom in the world. We don't put down the history of the French or the Russians. We highly appreciated the French support during our own war for independence. We have returned the favor twice in this century. The Russians and Americans are natural allies. When we act together, the world is a better place.

I suspect Greek antipathy to the U.S. is tied closely to the fact that Turkey and the U.S. are so close. Isn't this right?

Ned

[proffessor_ben]

Your all wrong

Just a couple of things,
Firstly I'd like like to nominate Britain as the number one World power as we're the only only ones to have won our crappy war.
The Americans lost in vietnam and the lost Russians in Afganistan.We beat the argies in the Faulklands.
I'm not counting the current "war" in Afganistan because it hasn't been won yet or Iraq because it wasn't a war it was a weapons test. If I've missed any out please say, I dont pretend this list is egstaustive just the ones that spring to mind.
Secondly a few people have been saying the only way the russians won wars was through weight of numbers. And ? It isn't the method that counts just the result.
Finally why does China have to become a democracy to be world power, Thats what ended Russia's reign as one. Democracy isn't the be-all and end all. America isn't the world super-power because its a democracy, its because it was in the right place at the right time to take advantage of the fall of the British Empire and WW2.
Theres my tupence worth, Thank you and goodnight.

P.S. I learnt a lot about east european history from this thread, Edifying.

[Akka]

I suspect Greek antipathy to the U.S. is tied closely to the fact that Turkey and the U.S. are so close. Isn't this right?

Ned

I rather think that it's more because of the way US helped dictatorship of the Colonels to came to power and to stay in place in Greece, rather than seing a communist party elected.
When your country had to live under a junta rule for some decades because some other country considered it better than to let it have a democratic government that would be sympathetical to its opponent, it's normal you hold some QUITE HUGE grudge against it.

[Saras]

Trust me, the Greeks should be grateful for the Junta. The alternative was a completely bizarre and miserable life up until the 90's, and rebuilding afterwards.

Just look at all the central european countries.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Serb

I’m not wounded at all and I’m not a linguist, but again in times of Roman Empire Slavs did not existed. I believe that you are mistaken. Do you think the Slavs called themselves slaves? It’s absurd. On Russian or any other Slav’s language the Slav’s people are called “Slavyane” I guess it’s originated from word “slava” which means “glory” and ‘slavyane’ means- ‘glorious people’.

You are mistaken, Slavs have existed for a lot longer than the Roman Empire. Here's a Russian site for you with the pertinent information:

http://histru.newmail.ru/Add/slave.htm

And here's the information for anyone who doesn't want to wait for that page to load:



Ýòèìîëîãèÿ àíãë. slave



Ìåíÿ ïî÷òè óáåäèëè (SASA íà ÂÈÔ), ÷òî ñîâð. àíãë. slave ïðîèñõîäèò îò èìåíè ñëàâÿí:

1. http://www.bartleby.com/61/62/S0466200.html:

NOUN:
1. One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household. 2. One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence: "I was still the slave of education and prejudice" (Edward Gibbon) 3. One who works extremely hard. 4. A machine or component controlled by another machine or component. I

NTRANSITIVE VERB:
Inflected forms: slaved, slav·ing, slaves 1. To work very hard or doggedly; toil. 2. To trade in or transport slaves.

ETYMOLOGY:
Middle English sclave, from Old French esclave, from Medieval Latin sclvus, from Sclvus, Slav (from the widespread enslavement of captured Slavs in the early Middle Ages). See SLAV.

WORD HISTORY:
The derivation of the word slave encapsulates a bit of European history and explains why the two words slaves and Slavs are so similar; they are, in fact, historically identical. The word slave first appears in English around 1290, spelled sclave. The spelling is based on Old French esclave from Medieval Latin sclavus, "Slav, slave," first recorded around 800. Sclavus comes from Byzantine Greek sklabos (pronounced sklavs) "Slav," which appears around 580. Sklavos approximates the Slavs' own name for themselves, the Slovnci, surviving in English Slovene and Slovenian. The spelling of English slave, closer to its original Slavic form, first appears in English in 1538. Slavs became slaves around the beginning of the ninth century when the Holy Roman Empire tried to stabilize a German-Slav frontier. By the 12th century stabilization had given way to wars of expansion and extermination that did not end until the Poles crushed the Teutonic Knights at Grunwald in 1410.·As far as the Slavs' own self-designation goes, its meaning is, understandably, better than "slave"; it comes from the Indo-European root *kleu-, whose basic meaning is "to hear" and occurs in many derivatives meaning "renown, fame." The Slavs are thus "the famous people." Slavic names ending in -slav incorporate the same word, such as Czech Bohu-slav, "God's fame," Russian Msti-slav, "vengeful fame," and Polish Stani-slaw, "famous for withstanding (enemies)."

2. http://www.britannica.com/cgi-bin/dict?va=slave:

Main Entry: 'slave
Pronunciation: 'slAv
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English sclave, from Old French or Medieval Latin; Old French esclave, from Medieval Latin sclavus, from Sclavus Slavic; from the frequent enslavement of Slavs in central Europe Date: 14th century.
1 :

[Akka]

Originally posted by Saras
Trust me, the Greeks should be grateful for the Junta. The alternative was a completely bizarre and miserable life up until the 90's, and rebuilding afterwards.

Just look at all the central european countries.

Wait to live under a military junta before saying that someone should be thankful about it.
And I was talking about a REAL democratic communist government, not the kind of government Stalin imposed to the East : Greece was not liberated by Russian's armies.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Sikander from another source

By the 12th century stabilization had given way to wars of expansion and extermination that did not end until the Poles crushed the Teutonic Knights at Grunwald in 1410.

It was the roughly 50/50 army of Poland and Lithuania that crushed the teutons at Grunwald [Tannenberg]. In fact, the cunning maneuver of faked retreat and the resulting slaughter of the whole right flank of the Teuton army by Grand Duke Vytautas of Lithuania was the decider of the battle, when the central Polish line was already starting to falter.

The army got drunk afterwards on all the Burgundy the Teutons brought with them to celebrate , thus giving von Plauen (to whom command devolved after von Jungingen was killed in battle) three days to regroup and fortify in Marienberg.

It pisses me off when pollacks steal our history.

[Akka]

Etymology: Middle English sclave, from Old French or Medieval Latin; Old French esclave, from Medieval Latin sclavus, from Sclavus Slavic; from the frequent enslavement of Slavs in central Europe

[cocky]
I knew I was right
[/cocky]

[Saras]

Originally posted by Akka le Vil Wait to live under a military junta before saying that someone should be thankful about it.
And I was talking about a REAL democratic communist government, not the kind of government Stalin imposed to the East : Greece was not liberated by Russian's armies.

You may be right; Greece could have had something of a yugoslav system eventually, and now live like Croatia or Slovenia (whose GDP/capita is close or even higher (?) than Greece's).

[Sikander]

Originally posted by paiktis22
That's all I'm saying.

I can't remember any american victory anywhere.

You aren't trying very hard are you? Starting with the British in the Revolutionary war and the War of 1812 when we were tiny and our military was even tinier. Then we beat the Mexicans with a volunteer force against their professional and European trained and much larger army, then we beat the crap out of ourselves, Spain, Germany in WWI, Germany in WWII, Italy, Japan. We fought the Chinese and Koreans to a stalemate while simultaneously bearing the brunt of the burden for defending Western Europe. Vietnam was a lost war, but it wasn't exactly a cakewalk for our opponents who lost many times more men and couldn't win until we were gone for several years. We then won the cold war and the Gulf War.

Of course we didn't do all of this by ourselves by any stretch of the imagination. We had allies more often than not, and in most cases their contribution to the effort was significant.

Originally posted by paiktis22
Even in WW2 the ones who took the bulk of the fight and saved Europe from the Nazis were again the Russians. (of course they were just fighting their enemy, but in their free time they saved Europe too).

Forgive me if I don't bow down and thank the Soviets for saving Europe. They were happy enough to ally with the Nazis in order to gobble up as much territory as they could, and were dragged into the war against Germany completely against their will. The fact that they used the opportunity to again grab as much territory as they could again shows how selfish their behavior was at all times. I do admit that they faced the bulk of the German war effort, probably 70%. But they didn't have a choice in the matter, and they did what they had to do. Bravely.

Originally posted by paiktis22
It is high time you get off your high horse. Your "antipathy" towards people like Russians or French, just because you have conflicting interests, makes you look repulsive.

I realize that this is intended for someone else, but I just want to say that I have personally defended both the French and the Russians from some of the ganging up that Americans and other Europeans have engaged in on these forums from time to time. I agree that a lot of that is ignorant.

Originally posted by paiktis22
Russians and French have a history you can not ever hope to match.

This is pure hyperbole. In many ways we already compare favorably to these two countries, and who knows what the future will hold? Greece may even rise to new heights someday!

Originally posted by paiktis22
Instead of getting involved in a piss fight and show how small hearted and insecure you are, it would be better to start reading some non american newspapers.

That can be an excersize in futility as well. Americans don't have a monopoly on ignorance or press bias.

Originally posted by paiktis22
I have never seen people more brainwashed than some Americans here.

You just don't see how much many of the others (including you) are brainwashed because we Americans are numerous and our media is well represented internationally. Our opinions are easy to find and critique. We are perhaps stubborn and bullheaded, but we put ourselves on the line more than almost anyone else, and we are criticized more than anyone else but the Israelis. This makes us more defensive and steadfast in our beliefs than we would be normally. On the other hand we have a better idea of how other non-western countries think sometimes than most Europeans because we are engaged with those countries in a wider range of ways. This is why Americans are less optimistic about things like 'the peace process', or the international court. We deal directly with the failures of high ideas which make sense to the Western mind but fail utterly when applied to world at large, and are hence more aware of these matters than the denizens of most European countries who have known nothing but peace for more than a half century and spend most of their time dealing with other European countries who have the same experience.

Originally posted by paiktis22
To condemn others of being brainwashed, others whose accomplishments over the centuries overpass yours by light years is one of the most ironic things I have ever encountered.

But, hey, it's just me and according to you I'm an anti-american (one of the billions really)

If it's only billions of anti-Americans, then I'm betting on the USA.

[Sikander]

Saras,

You quote me above, but the quote is from someone else. If you could edit that I would appreciate it. I get into enough trouble with my own words.