US special forces 'inside Iran'

[Arrian]

This however does not mean in any way we shouldn't be spying our asses off in Iran to more completely understand the nature of Iran's intentions. To that end lets up the spy dollars for more human intel.

I guess the question is where is the line between spying and invasion?

Sending a special ops unit in... that's not a spy dropping of photos for a handler. That's a military unit - I assume armed - entering the territory of a sovereign nation. To me, that's beyond spying. That's an act of war.

-Arrian

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Arrian


I guess the question is where is the line between spying and invasion?

Sending a special ops unit in... that's not a spy dropping of photos for a handler. That's a military unit - I assume armed - entering the territory of a sovereign nation. To me, that's beyond spying. That's an act of war.

-Arrian

My impression of the special ops forces are more akin to the special ops forces that preceeded Afghanistan, i.e. building support and networks with the locals. I doubt highly there are seal teams looking to do a James Bond raid on Reactor 4 at present.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by notyoueither
ie, they are too smart to fall for the obvious. The obvious being that the admin had a few people talk to a 'reputable' outlet in the hopes of sending a message to the Iranians.

Still, I wonder if they got the message.

That would be illegal in America, and Hersch wouldn't go along with it. If the story appeared in the NYT, then you'd probably be right. The NYT is where the CIA does most of its plant stories.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

The NYT is where the CIA does most of its plant stories.

Probably so. As DanS stated the US plants its stories in hostile foreign press.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

The concept of working the insides via special forces akin to the approach in Afghanistan, namely networking with the disenchanted may have merit

Funnily enough, the one country on this side of the ocean that would have elected Mr. Bush is not in Europe, but the Middle East: it's Iran, where many young people apparently hunger for Mr. Bush to remove their despotic leaders, the way he did in Iraq.

An Oxford student who had just returned from research in Iran told me that young Iranians were "loving anything their government hates," such as Mr. Bush, "and hating anything their government loves." Tehran is festooned in "Down With America" graffiti, the student said, but when he tried to take pictures of it, the Iranian students he was with urged him not to. They said it was just put there by their government and was not how most Iranians felt.

Iran, he said, is the ultimate "red state." Go figure.

NYT Rag Editorial

[Ned]

Originally posted by Arrian




Or like Musharraf, Mubarak, and Qaddafyi? But those guys know how to kowtow properly...

Or hows about those noted lovers of freedom, the PRC? Goodness knows we wouldn't stoop so low as to trade with them. Oh, um...

Yeah, the whole world knows it's YOU and those like you that have it ass backwards, Ned.

-Arrian

The existence of strongmen does not mean that we put them there as your crazy leftists state repeatedly, nauseously. Their continued existence does not require an immediate invasion by the US, as your stupid note implies. The US is the world's best hope of freedom and human rights. You know it, but say the opposite. Why? Because you are a leftist.

As to the alternative to UN sanctions being war, you proposed diplomacy. But the assumption here is that UN sanctions are the result of failure of diplomacy. If the EU cannot persuade Iran to stop, I am sure we cannot as well, as we have had no relations with Iran since Carter. So, if diplomacy fails, we have no recourse but to proceed to next steps or again, as you state, do nothing.

The next step are UN sanctions. I am somewhat sure the UN will impose them.

[Ted Striker]

He wasn't applying those particular dictators were put there by us.

That was your projection.

[Ned]

Ted, true. His note did not say that. But his (and other leftist's) previous note was all about the US imposing/supporting dictators throughout the world as if the sole cause of dictatorships and oppression in the world was the US. Che, god love him, even has stated that the reason for Stalin's iron rule was the US. (His reasoning is a bit vague, but all leftists would agree with him because they pin the blame for all oppression in the world on the US in some way.)

Now we have the crazy Islamists even blaming the recent tidal wave on the US. We supposedly conducted some secret military experiments or such that set the earthquake off.

This drumbeat of insanity is almost laughable if it were not so harmful.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Agathon

On a serious note, I don't give that report much credibility.. the White House has already said it is full of holes. And we won't need many troops to topple the regime in Iran.

You are joking right?

Iran = Iraq x 2

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
The existence of strongmen does not mean that we put them there as your crazy leftists state repeatedly, nauseously.

Doesn't mean we didn't though. In the case of the three specific dictators listed, however, we did not. OTOH, we speak of wanting to spread freedom, we never talk of doing it in our allies countries, where it might actually do the most good and where we'd probably be more successful with less violence used.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
Che, god love him, even has stated that the reason for Stalin's iron rule was the US.

Not exactly, Ned. You are, as usual, twisting things mightily. The U.S. was among many factors (and far from the most important one), in the rise of Stalin. The U.S. intervention of the Russian Civil War contibuted to the massive destruction of the war and helped to prolong it, but the principle foreign actors were Great Britain and, mostly, France (and Great Britain was the country that initiated the Russian Civil War). The massive destruction of the war created a situation in which the bureaucracy was able to become independent of the government, and within a few years, seize power. Not exactly the same thing as pinning Stalin's iron rule on the U.S.

[The Mad Monk]

I hear the 3rd Infantry Division is being rotated back into Iraq, and the 173rd Long Range Surveillance Detachment is already there.

Feel free to discuss the implications.

[Ted Striker]

More guys that were supposed to get time off are getting screwed again.

[The Mad Monk]

Rainbow Division deploys 'intel snipers’ to Iraq
By Staff Sgt. Raymond Drumsta

Sniper-trained Spc. Richard Busa, 173rd LRS(D), right, gives marksmanship pointers to Spc. Ana Perez, 272nd Chemical Company, left, at Fort Drum's Range 21, before the Soldiers deployed to Iraq with the 42nd Infantry Division.
Staff Sgt. Raymond Drumsta Printer-friendly version
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FORT DRUM, N.Y. (Army News Service, Jan. 13, 2005)¯ The 42nd Infantry Division has deployed to Iraq with what leaders term a powerful, yet subtle, combat-multiplier — the sniper-trained Soldiers of the division’s 173rd Long Range Surveillance Detachment, and their newly-issued M-14 rifles.

The rifles are “part and parcel” of the changing LRS(D) mission, said the unit’s commander, Capt. Michael Manning.

“This is not a detachment of snipers,” said Manning. “This is a detachment of highly trained intelligence collectors. We have sniping capability. Now we can acquire targets, identify targets, and destroy targets with organic direct fire weapons. That’s the big change. That’s what these weapons allow us to do.”

Manning said LRS(D)’s mission used to be strictly reconnaissance and surveillance ¯ working in small groups 80 to 100 kilometers beyond friendly lines, reporting information on enemy movements and the battlefield to a higher command. The enemy and battlefield have changed, so the mission has changed, according to Manning.

“We’re not training for the Fulda Gap anymore,” said Manning, referring to the area in Germany that NATO forces were assigned to defend against Russian maneuver brigades. “We’re fighting insurgents who operate in small groups. That drives the way we conduct operations.”

Manning described the new mission as reconnaissance, surveillance, and target acquisition ¯ in other words, LRS(D) will be assigned to observe areas for improvised explosive devices and indirect fire activity and, if ordered by the combatant commander, eliminate insurgents with their sniper rifles. The M-14, commented Manning, has redefined the unit's mission.

“It’s a tremendous force multiplier. It’s a tremendous asset on the battlefield.”

Equipping and training LRS(D) on the M-14 rifles was a joint effort of the 42nd Infantry Division, the 1215th Garrison Support Unit at Fort Drum, the First Army Small Arms Readiness Group, or SARG, and FORSCOM, according to Lt. Col. Richard Ellwanger, chief of personnel, 1215th Garrison Support Unit.

“Our mission is to support the mobilization of the National Guard and Reserves,” said Ellwanger. “We work with the post to provide an infrastructure for the National Guard and Reserves while they’re here at Fort Drum.”

The M-14 rifles will increase LRS(D) Soldiers’ ability to neutralize targets without collateral damage, said Ellwanger.

“The rifle gives the Soldiers the ability to engage targets out to 800 meters. Once the word gets out to the insurgents that the Soldiers have that capacity, they will be less likely to get inside the 400- to 500-meter range and engage with RPGs (rocket-propelled grenades) or medium machine guns.”

The instruction of the SARG team was superb, according to Manning.

“These guys are superb marksmen. They instilled in LRS(D) the techniques, tactics and procedures that make them good marksmen. They’re professional. To a man, they’re first-rate marksmen.”

Most of the training took place at Fort Drum’s Range 21, where the sniper-trained LRS(D) Soldiers zeroed and engaged targets with their iron sights, and zeroed the scopes on their rifles.

“By virtue of going through this training, LRS(D) Soldiers now have the confidence in themselves that they can effectively operate this weapon system,” said Manning. “What the 42nd Division has done, by virtue of outfitting LRS(D) with M-14 rifles, is make us the cutting edge of the LRS(D) community.”



But the real edge in LRS(D)’s sniping capability are the LRS(D) Soldiers behind the newly issued M-14 rifles — graduates of the four-week National Guard Sniper School at Camp Robinson, Ark. With their M-14 training complete, the LRS(D) soldiers became trainers themselves, turning Soldiers from other 42nd Infantry Division units into designated marksmen.



“We’re a combat multiplier because we can give the division planners nearly real-time information, and a picture of the battlefield,” said LRS(D) sniper-trained Staff Sgt. Tim Halloran. “If we’re on a mission and we acquire a high-value target, we can not only report it to higher [headquarters], we can eliminate it.”

“Hopefully we can interdict the people placing the IEDs,” said LRS(D) Assistant Team Leader Cpl. Wayne Lynch, who, along with LRS(D) Team Leader Staff Sgt. Thomas O’Hare, served a tour in Iraq last year.

“That’s all I thought about when we were in Iraq last year: ‘how do we stop these people who are placing the IEDs?’ Now that we’ve got snipers in LRS(D), we’re able to do surveillance and take direct action,” Lynch said.

Deployed to Iraq with the 119th Military Police Company, Rhode Island National Guard, Lynch said he and O’Hare made it their job to find IEDs. Lynch said he hopes LRS(D) will be tasked with interdicting terrorists placing IEDs. He’s been a member of the unit for nine years and loves it. He does not regret going back to Iraq.

“I’m going with a unit I’ve trained with,” he said. “I’m honored to go to war with them.”

Based in Rhode Island, LRS(D) ruckmarches to the north summit of New Hampshire’s Mount Mooslacki every year. All members of LRS(D) are airborne qualified, and nine are ranger qualified. They have to do a jump every three months to maintain their airborne status.

“We train on a higher plain,” said LRS(D) sniper-trained Soldier Spc. Richard O’Connor. “Most units do five-mile rucksack marches. We do 15-mile rucksack marches. Other units have 45-pound rucksacks. We have 80-pound rucksacks. We have to march farther and faster than anyone else.”

O’Connor was a scout/sniper with the 3rd Battalion, 8th Marine Regiment, 2nd Marine Division. He’s been on real-world missions to Tunisia and Liberia, and took part in the rescue of Air Force Pilot Capt. Scott O’Grady, who was shot down over Bosnia in 1995.

“Anticipation of the mission is awesome,” said O’Connor. He described the job as a “rush”, and said LRS(D) team members must be physically fit, mature, and disciplined, and must know each other’s jobs.

Part of that job is going “subsurface”¯ patrolling to a location outside friendly lines, digging a hole, and living in it while observing enemy activity.

“They might live in that hole for two to four days,” said Manning. “It takes an unbelievably disciplined individual to do this job.”

“We’re just guys with rifles,” said O’Connor. “You have to have absolute confidence in everyone on your team. There’s nothing else in the Army I want to do.”

(Editor's note: Staff Sgt. Raymond Drumsta serves with the 42nd Infantry Division.)

Ted, thse guys aren't there to write traffic tickets.

[Ted Striker]

duh