The war.. is imminent

[Pekka]

So? That's not even in the main menu.

YOu don't understand, that from our view, it doesn't and didn't matter if they invaded or not after something. SU invaded first. Priority Number 1 I WOULD assume.

So of course we should have let Stalin kill us first, so that Hitler couldn't have invaded us. Of course, duh!

[Jaakko]

You're on a roll tonight Pekka.

[Pekka]

Not really, because this is one of those non-issues. To criticize someone for defending their own soli when non-provoked attack comes, knowning the facts that other countries have already been submitted, knowing that the trains are never late, hey, what can you really do. To citicize that decision that you could have done otherwise, since when was self defense in the most clear case of the book worse decision than attacking another country because something might happen or could or would happen if something would happen? Of course the latter one is worse, but it's not a proper argument to say, that you did wrong too, acknoweldge it. No. Because that latter one FORCED to the action. OK, there was no alternatives.
Like I said, you are saying we should have trusted STALIN.. how ****ing stupid is that? It was stupid then, and I would figure, that now that we know a bit of history, it's beyond stupid. It's something ultra something.

[Pekka]

And YES we've heard the redicilous claims that we bombed first etc. Those are totally bogus. Russia has even admitted this later on, in the 90s. Now how can some people still be so stupid, that they believe otherwise? How can they be so stupid, that they believe we started building up in the border, so it was a sign of aggression? Hey, they started building up defenses because of the attack. It's just a fact.

Yeah, or what about the maps where they show greater Finland with half of Russia taken? Oh yeah that must of been a real official plan made by the government I'm sure

Believe what you want people... believe what you want. And Tass is one of the intelligent ones, I mean I've been lurking in many forums, also in Russian military forums.. oh man what a joy that is. Supposedly we had 20 million people, we started attacking, because we wanted half of Russia, but SU was able to pin us down and push back, and was thus justified to take what they wanted. It included a defense line stronger than maginot line, etc etc.

When every single fact is wrong, you can't even debate. These people believe what they want to believe. THese people are from the era of Stalin is our hero and still believe it. I can only feel sorryt for them, because they're no different from NK people who think dear leader can fly and have magic powers.

[Shogun Gunner]

I have spent several hours tonight reading anything I can find on this subject. It's amazing stuff. Most sources I have read have strong complimented the strategic thinking of the Finns throughout these difficult times in their history.

Sandwhiched between two powerhouses...managing to survive WW2 - remember, most European countries were occupied and largely destroyed. Then to go throw the whole "buffer state" thing again during the Cold War....

I have thought about this on a personal level. What if I was threatened by two huge dudes in a bar. What if I could trick one to think I was on his side to fight the other. And right before one guy kicks the other guys ass, I take off -- protecting myself. That's not only smart, that's a great story!

I have yet to read anything about how the Finns mistreated the Jews...in fact, it seems to be the opposite.

And for the motives that Pekka alludes too. Well, it sounds like he's being very generous. The Soviet Union got whatever they deserved for trying to invade and control a neighboring country. In fact, it's pretty ironic that Winter War was the catalyst to reform the SU military. Damn ironic!

I'm proud to read that Americans would not declare war on Finland...and that Americans had a high regard for Finland due to Finland being the only European country to make good on it's war debt. The-only-country.

This is one interesting subject. It's life. You never know what's going to happen. You do your best to survive....you do what it takes and you make the best decision you can in each moment.

[Pekka]

Yeah it's very long story to understand, that's why it's easily mistaken for something it really wasn't.

The reason I do not bash too much SU than just Stalin is because they had little choices, the men. Stalin did mistreat his own troops worse than anyone else, so you know, they were victims too. It's not like they wanted to come. They got in the powerpolitics just like we did, pawns.

You can see it throughout reading interviews from boths sides, which are plenty. No one really knew what they got into. We thought we are going to all lose our lands, freedom and perhaps lives if they come and win. So, motivation is high when you fight in your own lands. I mean, many guys really did fight in their own backyards, literally. The guy might have owned the piece of forrest he was in charge defending. So you don't leave that area unless you really really need to.

Where as SU troops were with POOR recon, beause they weren't expecting much of resistance. In fact, they were told that we would be happy to recieve them. So that makes me kind of feel sad for them you know.. they were fooled into that. A week and they'd be in Helsinki, celebrating with their like minded comrades in here, sweeping few rebel troopers. But in fact we were whipped in survival mode with extreme prejudice.. do or die.

Often the SU doctrine was so stiff, that it was bad for them. I've read many stories from SU troopers, who were in a situation impossible. For example, they could see a dead soldier from our side, yet they couldn't take his warm and better clothes in the early stage of the war. They could discover a storage of food, yet they could not take any from it, unless they'd be willing to not follow the order. And SU troopers were pretty disciplined, they did follow lot of crazy orders being disciplined. It just fights against your common sense, and of course the individuals had it. But rules were rules.

So then you have to wonder, in those days and in that weather, plus taking some heavy casualties fast, you have to be thinking what the hell are we doing in here.

It turned out from many prisoners taken, that they had nothing against us really.. they were just caught up in the middle.

The reason why mayn didn't declare war on us can be seen on the mild justifications of retaliating back, since Winter War itself was seen as our side more sympathetic. Continuation war was another story. Because of the Hitler factor in it, it got complex. Yet, many decided not to declare war, realizxing the situation we were caught in. ANd... it was SU bombers that officially started that one.

I don't know if it was strategically great leadership other than they did what was necessary and obvious. I'd give the strategic genius title to President Ryti, who went to make the secret agreement with HItler, fully knowing it's not water proof, thus like disappearing ink. Perfect.

But he paid for it and went to jail. His name has been cleared only some decades ago in here for it. That he actually took the bullet, willignly, and now that we can see the plan implemented by him worked perfectly.

It is mostly good luck that things went like they did. Other strategic qualities I can't really see, surrendering point blank wasn't an option, so you do what you do. It's not even genius in the level of what about Nazis.. the genius in it was to take the help and not give anything in return.

But it wasn't any more genius than that. I mean, nazis didn't invade us, SU did, so then you have two options choose one. Think day at a time. If Nazis want to invade, it's then another problem, let's think about it then.

The outcome was perfect though.. the war with SU ended and Hitler lost.

What happened afterwards is the big shame though.. the finlandization, where we were more responsible for it than SU. It only started ending in the 80s, and now we can say we're out of that with the new generations.

What comes to fighting.. I wouldn't say we have better genes or anything like that. SU doctrine was just so stiff. Our army was also very inexperienced. But people were hunters and lke that so they could turn it easily into battling skills. It was few of the officers, that truly helped our ways, they were truly genious in their moves, that have been since grabbed by many other countries. Note that many had to escape after the wars, since SU wanted their heads for big money, because they were the biggest fighting heroes we had and truly nasty, and most of those people escaped to US where they joined the army and msost went into SF, later on deployed to Germany, beacuse many of them spoke German. They are very interesting stories about their lives. I actually have known one such person who lives in the US and just died few weeks ago. He was one of the 'long patrol' guys, responsbiel for huge sabotage missions and such.... nasty stories.. blowing up railways.. and he had to shoot one of his friends in one such mission because he got injured and couldn't go on. He was little out there these days he was.. I guess it took the toll on his head pretty bad. But he was able to work for a very long time in the US for a very special agency .

[Pekka]

And in fact, many of the promising SU officers got wiped out anyway by Stalin, so .. and the few officers that lead in most important places were outmatched by their counter partner, but not because they were less skilled, but because they had to follow the doctrine. They were many cases where they would try full frontal attack on open field, even up to a hill, and our mg's and all could just chew them up. This could last for minutes, new guys coming in coming in, not stopping. Reserves coming in. Officer fully watching it and prolly swearing inside his head about the doctrine he couldn't change. He had littel choices. Of course he could refuse to attack when ordered. But that's not a good idea thinking about his career.

SO those were plenty.. in bigger picture of strategies, SU wasn't bad at all.. it was in the smaller details in the field with the doctrines. That was the deciding point that turned the numbers obsolete. And again, the need for recon was grossly underestimated. They were easily circled etc.. it was easy to escape, it was easy to penetrate, it was easy to anything because of the lack of mobility and strategy on low level fighting.

Of course, they reformed, and they got a lot better with the low level strategy, and this is when the battles turned into pretty even headed.

Also their moves were predictable. They massed up so much troops in places, that even before that happened our strategic officers would guess it right and knew the key spots. The SU did start the attack very good. Split up the country in half and truly was a cause of concern, advanced fast. If Stalin had been a better strategic leader, SU would have wiped their butts with us. But he wasn't. Just like Hitler wasn't.

It seems to me, that these murderous dictators always fall short on these things.. they start out good, but at the end they lose against their more skilled counter parts. And note, their counter parts are always experienced officers, not dictators. This is why it is essential to give up the commander in chief stauts to someone else, the most experienced military leader early on and not hug on it. Because the chances are, you don't know what you're doing. Stalin should have trusted his officers more, give them more freedom in planning attacks and all that stuff.
And give thme permission to retreat! Just lkie Hitler and Stalingrad. So many died for nothing because they didn't get the permission to retreat. Where as if we couldn't get a permission to retreat, they would '**** it, we need to go'. It must be noted, that our soldier were hardly disciplined towarsd their offciers. Discilpine problems were plenty. But not in the fighting scene, in the spair time scene. Basically, if someone wants ot make you salute, they're asking for an ass kicking. It's a weird combination of hating authorities but yet trusting them in the field and forgetting about it then. But when it's over, it's back to being face to face angry.

[Pekka]

It also must be noted, it is oftne said we were alone. This is true. However, many volunteers came. Nothing spectacular you wouldn't see in any fighting scene, but lot of Scandinavians came to aid. Especially lots of Swedes came to aid when their government made the decision not to officially aid us. They did aid us but not in the extent we were expecting. So many Swedes felt they should come here and fight, and they did. Can't remember the actual numbers, but almost 10 000 volunteers came. That's A LOT from one country. So while people think Swedes should have helped, well on personal level they did more than that. about 10 000 came, that's no little change, that's huge. And let's remember, against enemy that dying would not only be possibility, but likely. Plus Swedes took our kids and babies also in tens and tens and tens of thousands and gave them home. So they did contribute off of their backs more than anyone else did, multiple times, without asking anything back. Some people tend to forget it. They should be hanged. I believe it was the uncle of Chemical Ollie who for example came here too, I remember him telling me about it. So to Swedes

[Shogun Gunner]

Pekka, that's a good point about the Russian soldiers. The 20 year old privates in the Soviet army didn't decide themselves that Finland was the enemy. That's true. Thanks for mentioning that.

Wow, Pekka, you have a lot to say about this. It's been very informative...you know, getting a human perspective and person telling the story as opposed to reading articles and encyclopedia entries alone.

[Shogun Gunner]

Originally posted by Pekka
I believe it was the uncle of Chemical Ollie who for example came here too, I remember him telling me about it. So to Swedes

to Chemical Ollie's Uncle

[Pekka]

Shogun, but you now begin to understand the many layers in our case.. it is a bit complicated. From our view, it's not complicated at all but to explain it, that is complicated.

And other situations too, I mean would we be sad because SU won Hitler? Of course not. SU troops fighting Hitler SU troops winning Hitler and giving massive contributions with their lives doing it So.. it's not that simple really.. on the other hand they did gain a great victory, that perhaps saved our butts from Germany too .

On the other hand they gained lots of tactics and reforming army against Germans from us.. then again Germans did aid us... then again they could have invaded us too.. then again we fought them too at the end.. it's a mish mash it's what it is.

And it's not the only time Germany helped us. Did you know they helped us during the times of WWI, that saved us, and yet again they lost, which saved us too .

So they have aided us twice, saved us, and lost at the end personally, again, even better for us. It's really really weird. If history would repeat itself, Germany will aid us again and we will be saved because of it, and they will lose at the end of the bigger picture, and again, good for us.

[Pekka]

Well, we have had only one real war, so it's all we got in history of our countries war. We usually go it day by day in some fronts. Very detailed. We have a short history anyway. Plus many vets still live, so many of us have grandpas who were in the war. So it's the ONLY war topic WE have. So we go through it a lot. Plus everyone serves, so it's kind of .. automatic.

Also that war defined us as a country later on, and everything that happened after the war was mostly because of the war.

We have so much material about the war it's unbelievable. You can't read it all. all war movies are from that war, because there are no other wars.

So young people interested about wars, that's all they have, so they study it a lot. I'm not even .. I could prolly go through a whole book about things, but then again it would include some clear errors and mistakes, mixing up things. It's truly very interesting I think even from objective perspective. It was a very interesting war, from all sides, from SU side too. So definitely I have read some SU trooper stories, though most of them tend to be from other fronts than ours, but some from ours are out there too.. very interesting.

The only war our academic officers study is this, I mean what concerns our wars. They still study it. They have recently discovered some thought to be lost archives from Moscow. With Russian investigators naturally. They were secret, but they were recently discovered and they have **** loads of information in there.. most radio messages, everything. So they went through it all.. they have constructed some of the situations more accurately now.. they're making multimedia CDs and all that.. They have the accurate info on the last battle of the continuation war for example, one of the biggest battles ever fought on this planet. So much crap flew in the air that only descriptions have been available even though so mayn took part. But now they have ALL the data from it. I mean they have our side of the battle, which is of course correct, what happened in our side, messages, orders, all that. But now they have SU side too, it all matches but it's very interesting.

If you want to check out some movies, I recommend
Winter War by Pekka Parikka.. lot of trees get blown up in that movie...

and then an older one, Tuntematon Sotilas.. black and white movie made in .. 56. It's a great movie. Note it's made in 56.. again, lots of explosions, LOTS of swearing, I mean it's not like other war movies made in that era. Worth watching IF interested.. winter war is about winter war, tuntematon sotilas is about continuation war.

[Pekka]

http://www.mil.fi/perustietoa/talvisota_eng/

here are the daily telegrams if you're interested.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Oh, maybe you shouldn't have had the Soviet Union collapse and thus bring about a much poorer and, irionically, a much more despotically inclined government that now wants to act imperialist sensing that it can easily become at least a great power again.

Your mistake

Much more despotic? Wow, they must be going Maoist. :/

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by booger
Seroiusly this is not 1940. The United States nor Europe would stand by an attack on finland. Russia would be toast.

And just WTF could Europe do about it? How inclined would the US be to fight another war for France?