The war.. is imminent

[Solomwi]

Good lord, they're planning a two-front war! Absorbing Finland and Turkmenistan simultaneously will be quite a feat if the manage to pull it off.

[Pekka]

Seems like none of you got it. T Hey're not planning a physical war. They're doing the dirty campagn. Which can lead to war in the future. Not tomorrow, not even next year, but perhaps in the next decade or two.

But the actions have already stared, the preparations. The war won't happen if we play along nicely. Which means we're back into the 70s, total *****es of another country, free for any kind of use 24/7. THis is worse than war anyway.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Pekka
Seems like none of you got it. T Hey're not planning a physical war. They're doing the dirty campagn. Which can lead to war in the future. Not tomorrow, not even next year, but perhaps in the next decade or two.

But the actions have already stared, the preparations. The war won't happen if we play along nicely. Which means we're back into the 70s, total *****es of another country, free for any kind of use 24/7. THis is worse than war anyway.

If you want to be safe, then join NATO. That seems to scare Russians.

[laurentius]

If you want to be safe nuke Russia and throw away all your weapons

[Shogun Gunner]

Well, I just finished reading the full entry for the "Winter War" and the "Continuation War". Its fantastic reading...I guess I was aware of most of the details of Finland's declaration of independence in 1917, to the building tensions with the Soviet Union. I found the wikipedia entry covering the Battle of Suomussalmi very interesting. What struck me as the most interesting was the details of the Finnish diplomacy in the 30's through the 50's. It sounds like a struggle to just survive and feed the citizens in the late 30's.

Some facts I didn't know:
1. Finland attempted to form a "nordic defense pact" with Denmark, Sweden and Norway which was made obsolete with the German invasion of Denmark and Norway.
2. One of the major reasons Russia agitated prior to 1941 against Finland was to obtain access to a lucrative Canadian-owned nickel mine.
3. Finland lost 12% of it's best farmland to Russia in the "Winter War"; regained it in 1941, lost it again in the Russian offensive of 1944.
4. The UK declared war, and even bombed Finland, in 1941
5. The United States refused to declare war on Finland.
6. Finnish volunteers were permitted to travel to Germany which formed a Waffen SS military unit serving in the Caucasus and Ukraine before being disbanded in 1944. This was done to appease Germany who expected a great deal more in Finnish support.
7. Finnish citizens of Jewish descent served in the Finnish army.
8. There was a field hospital/synagogue operating in support of the Finnish forces throughout the Continuation war.
9. Several Finnish soldiers. of Jewish descent, were awarded the German Iron Cross, but refused to accept the Germany war medal.
10. Helsinki, Moscow and London were the only European capitals not occupied by foreign forces of countries actively fighting in WW2.
11. Once a seperate peace was signed with Russia in 1944, Finland asked the German troops to leave, and they refused. Finland was forced to fight the German troops who were their allies prior to the peace treaty with Russia.
12. One of the concession Finland made to Russia was to allow a naval base, for 50 years, on a piece of land right next to Helsinki. However, this was returned to Finland in 1956.

In fact, Wikipedia's entries seem to suggest that Finland had few options in avoiding conflict, performed better on the battlefield than they did in diplomacy, and survived WW2 better than most European countries. It's a very interesting historical read.

[Az]

Finnish Jews serving in the Finnish army

cobelligerent my ass.

[Jaakko]

Originally posted by Azazel
Finnish Jews serving in the Finnish army

cobelligerent my ass.

Why not? Why should Finnish Jews have left themselves to Stalin's gentle mercies?

And to be on topic, Pekka is indeed paranoid. Getting worked up over a misleadingly cut&pasted station logo is FUNNY.

[Pekka]

Azazel, what's wrong in that? I mean, they were citizens....so they were also fighting like other ones as well.. ?? If we were to ever battle again, Jews would fight like everyone else, so I don't see any problems in that.

But it makes an interesting detail, there were several cases, where Jews of Finnish people would command German troops. Now that is certainly mindboggling. I remember reading there are no records of any German ever refusing to be ordered by a Jew in here. What a strange situation. Often times they were proven to be very good officers and fighters, to extent that they were given those high medals too, but they refused the German medals for obvious reasons. So this was a place where Jews and Germans cooperated, maybe reluctantly, but they did and no one made it a bigger deal than it had to be. But must of been akward, no doubt. Have to also remember, than the word about holocaust in its full truth wasn't known for a long time.

Also another weird situation was when we had a very skilled Jewish field doctor right up there in the heated battles, he would also perform emergency surgeries on Germans, saving their lives. Must of been a pretty mindboggling to go under his knife, being a German, and vice versa too. But he did what his job was, save lives no matter who it was under the knife.

[Az]

Why not? Why should Finnish Jews have left themselves to Stalin's gentle mercies?

Better that than fighting a war on Hitler's side. ( and the fact that German war awards were awarded to finnish soldiers at all shows that they didn't just fight the SU at the same time, but they've fought the SU together. TOGETHER with Nazi Germany.

[Pekka]

Jaakko, it was only one of the 5 signs, though it turned out to be a mistake.

If you try to claim, that they're not playing the good cop bad cop, then someone is denying facts. Nothing paranoid about it. You have to stick your head in a pretty deep bush to not see it.

[Pekka]

Azazel, are you trolling? I'm not quite sure.

[Az]

Azazel, are you trolling? I'm not quite sure.

A half troll, since I don't really care, because it's long in the past.

I am not blaming the finns, I cannot judge them ( though that doesn't mean that I support your position during the war, or even understand it).

I am just ing to finnish jews, for not refusing, and doing whatever they could to not fight the war together with Hitler, for crying out loud.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Pekka
Jaakko, it was only one of the 5 signs, though it turned out to be a mistake.

If you try to claim, that they're not playing the good cop bad cop, then someone is denying facts. Nothing paranoid about it. You have to stick your head in a pretty deep bush to not see it.

Your case is about as convincing as Serb's case that the EU is hating Russia and does everything in its power to destroy the Rodina

[Jaakko]

Originally posted by Azazel

Better that than fighting a war on Hitler's side. ( and the fact that German war awards were awarded to finnish soldiers at all shows that they didn't just fight the SU at the same time, but they've fought the SU together. TOGETHER with Nazi Germany.

Maybe they preferred a free Finland to a Soviet satellite, and possible deportation to Siberia?

I'll also have you note that Finland refused to take part in the siege of Leningrad for instance. We cynically played along with the Nazis, yes, but that was just about the only way for national survival. We also shafted the Nazis when the chance presented itself, so there was no loyalty.

I refuse to blame Finnish Jews for not succumbing to a tyrannic invader just to perform some futile moral stand.

[Pekka]

Yes, but they didn't think it like that, like we don't share that view either. We don't think about fighting for Hitler, or even with Hitler. We fought SU, plain cold, period. Hitler had his own crap. He had his own things. He fought SU too. That was his war. We had our war. Two different things for us. You might see it as collective effort, we see it as separate effort. HItler attacked, we defended. We had no choice, where as Hitler wanted to destroy SU. Little countries don't really have the playing chips in their hands, and we were stuck with ****ty cards. You play with what you have.

It is as if Osama would now come out and say we must fight Iraq, and suddenly the US became Osama's ally. Oh but they fight ont he same side.. Must be, must be....

Not from our view. And they shared the same view. And that is why they have said and stills ay to be happy to given the chance to fight for their own country.