United States of Europe vs. Stalinland: Ukraine, pt. II

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Spiff, how have the stances of the US and EU gone beyond whats justified by the OSCE observers, who you say you do trust as individuals?

The EU, through the voice of Barroso (the President of the Commission) immediately congratulated Yushchenko, and congratulated a victory for democracy and fair elections. The EU's support for Yushchenko is as blatant as Russia's support for Yanukovych.
I don't know if the US is as strongly involved as the EU or Russia in the victory of their candidate, but I would imagine the US is just as worthy of distrust as the other two.

Serb and Vag are at least consistent - they say the OSCE observers are liars. If they OSCE observers are NOT liars, how could the US and EU have taken different stances from what they did?

I know one OSCE observer, and I believe her not to be a liar. The thing is that what ONE observer individually says matters little. The organization as a whole is a different thing as individual observers: it gathers individual testimonies, and then make a "big picture" interpretation that is then the raw material for the media and the policy maker. I believe the OSCE (as an organization) to be pro-Yushchenko, although less markedly than the EU.

I understand you dont like the cold war sounding rhetoric from some of the superficial voices in the West - though I dont think you get that from ANYONE whos delved seriously into the matter.

The pro-Yushchenko propaganda is something I get from listening to the French media and from Euronews. Thanks to you OT people, I got to discover how manipulated and propagandistic my media is (it's excellent to see different perspectives), and I know the fact that propaganda follows the State's stance.

I agree it is true the cold-war talk is exaggerated. This election is not about whether Ukraine will become a vassal of Russia or a vassal of the EU. The new president will merely affect whether Ukraine leans more toward Russia or more toward the West. However, it is clearly a situation where Russian and Western interests collide, and where both sides try to promote their interests by meddling with local politics (meddling with the election). It's a common policy, but such manipulation deserves to be condemned nonetheless.

LOTM, you were rightly prone to condemn Putin heavy support for Yanukovych. Why are you so shy to condemn the West heavy (and obvious) support of Yushchenko?

[Heresson]

I think there's an opposite attitude also present; blabling about "mysteries of Russian soul" and naivity when it comes to Moscow's politics

[problem_child]

Re: United States of Europe vs. Stalinland: Ukraine, pt. II

Originally posted by Stefu
Since my thread would inevitably have the best title, it was my solemn duty to start this new one.



(Of course, in reality US of E would be a few provinces bigger, but we haven't got the new map yet so whatevs)

Yuschenko
Yanukovich
Freedom
Russian imperialism
Ted Striker

Yuschenko
Yanukovich
Freedom, define this 'Freedom', Freedom to take? freedom to starve? Freedom to pollute? Freedom to be corrupt? If so, both sides support that anyway.
Russian imperialism
US imperialism

ps- Thread should be titled United States in Europe vs Russian Imperialism.

[Last Conformist]

Ukraine is much more likely to become a de-facto EU dependency than a US one.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
At last, a word of reason from a westerner.

This is partly thanks to you and Serb I don't think you guys are right on everything, far from it, but you know things that I don't, things that are certainly not broadly known in the West. And it excites my curiosity.

You guys prompted me to think about the Ukrainian situation without the propaganda-induced prejudices. Just like our Americans had me think about plenty of things US without prejudice, just like the Israelis has me think about plenty of things Israel etc.

It doesn't mean that I agree with you on all points (just like I often disagree with the Americans or the Israelis), but you and others have been eye openers.

[problem_child]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
Ukraine is much more likely to become a de-facto EU dependency than a US one.

Hm, perhaps. Personally I hadn't thought Europe still had it in it. But I suppose there's no reason to believe Europe is incabable of taking the lead in running its very own puppet-projects.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Most Americans like Russians - even during the cold war, I think most of us liked Russians as people. I dont think the Euros feel worse towards you.

Most American and Euros are clearly prejudiced against Russia. But at the same time, they may like us on a personal level, if they get to know us closely.

Plenty of Americans, BTW opposed bringing in the Visograd states to NATO, DESPITE a sense of historic obligation to them.

Great. But unfortunately it is the goverment that decides.

I see no real reason to bring Ukraine into NATO.

If your government thought the same...

The more you guys go on the way you do about them,however, the more it seems like NOT bringing them into NATO is leaving them out in the cold.

The irony is that if it was not for the phantom of NATO looming over the horizon, Russia would not feel the need to interfere so much into Ukrainian affairs.

You will notice that there are not NATO bases in the Baltics. The discussion of NATO bases in eastern europe has focused on small bases, that would be no threat to Russia, or to its sphere of influence.

Great. However, I should mention that as soon as the Baltics got into NATO, NATO planes started demonstratively patrolling the Russian border, often violating the Russian airspace, and thus causing quite an irritation in Russia.

Your paranoia MAY be sufficient to be self-fullfilling, but I doubt it.

True. Another thing that can also be self-fulfilling is the villification campaign that is going on in western press and in western politics towards Russia. Only negative, nothing positive. This obviously pushes Russia away from democracy. But, I should mention, Russia and Russian society still somehow resist this enormous destructive pressure.

We have too many interests in common. And, sorry to say this, you arent that threatening to us anymore. We simply dont think about you as much as you do about us.

True. But we still have the nukes. We are the only country that can destroy America. Are you sure the Americans will rest until this threat is eliminated? I somehow start to doubt this more and more.

[Serb]

That's right. Nuke the bastards!

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by problem_child


Hm, perhaps. Personally I hadn't thought Europe still had it in it. But I suppose there's no reason to believe Europe is incabable of taking the lead in running its very own puppet-projects.

Various bits of the Balkans are already de facto EU protectorates.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
True. But we still have the nukes. We are the only country that can destroy America. Are you sure the Americans will rest until this threat is eliminated? I somehow start to doubt this more and more.

Actually, that's not true: France can destroy America, so can the UK. China has the ability to build plenty of nuclear weapons (I don't know about their delivery means). So, Russia shares the "honor" of being a nuclear threat with at least three countries, but these countries are extremely unlikely to attack the US.

The US has all interests to follow the same policy in Russia that what has worked with the others: make cooperation something much more interesting than rivalry or war. Although Bush did idiotically in this regard (thanks to his amazing incompetence), Clinton clearly did try to integrate Russia into cooperation with the New World Order.

[Serb]

France and UK are not in the list of the countries against whom US ready to use nukes first. On the other hand, Russia is in top five (first or second, after China) of the countries against whom US is ready to use nukes first in accordance with thier new pre-emptive military doctrine.
Yeah, you are absolutely right, LOTM- We aren't 'that threatening to you anymore. You simply dont think about us as much as we do about you'. Your military doctrine clearly demonstrates this.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Spiffor

This is partly thanks to you and Serb I don't think you guys are right on everything, far from it, but you know things that I don't, things that are certainly not broadly known in the West. And it excites my curiosity.

You guys prompted me to think about the Ukrainian situation without the propaganda-induced prejudices. Just like our Americans had me think about plenty of things US without prejudice, just like the Israelis has me think about plenty of things Israel etc.

Glad to be part of it.

It doesn't mean that I agree with you on all points (just like I often disagree with the Americans or the Israelis), but you and others have been eye openers.

Of course. But if we sometimes come to an agreement over certain points, that feels great.

[Serb]

Vagabond,
about 'defeat', here is the interesting article (sorry, our western friends, it's on monkey language):

http://www.pravaya.ru/govern/123/1732

How do you like this?

[Serb]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Source? That implies a GDP per capita of over 4 times as high in eastern Ukraine as in western.

You ask me to waste hell knows how many hours to make a research for you? Who will pay for that study?
Donetsk region alone is reponsible for 25% of Ukranian GDP. You have to believe me.

[DanS]

Most American and Euros are clearly prejudiced against Russia.

I think many Americans and Euros were inclined to give Russia the benefit of the doubt in its political journeys. However, Russia's political proclivities are reinforcing Western prejudices.

Russia's recent political atmosphere feels decidely totalitarian. Under such an atmosphere, the West starts grasping to keep as many countries free as we can and to turn as many countries to freedom while there is still time. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see NATO attempt to extend its hand toward Ukraine in the next couple of years.