United States of Europe vs. Stalinland: Ukraine, pt. II

[Serb]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I heard Yanukovych will oppose the results to the courts. He claims there are systematic frauds.

I think it's a good idea. If anything, the courts showed their independence as they ordered these new elections. I think THEY are the best ones to decide whether the elections were rigged, or not.

I utterly distrust the OESC observers (not them individually, but the political interpretation said by the OESC), and the EU's or US's stances are worth no more than Russia's. All of these stances can go to the trash where they belong.

For the matter, I think both candidates are petty suckers which are bad for Ukraine.

Like it can change anything now. The courts made illegal decision in favor of Yushenko, under pressure of US and EU, so I don't see how it can be independent.

But the pro-Yushchenko propaganda sickened me into leaning toward Yanukovych... who IMHO wants to be a Putin-like but is way too incompetent for that effect.

I have to agree.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Spiffor
If anything, the courts showed their independence as they ordered these new elections.

Do you call this independence, when the decision was literally extorted by the mob in the streets, which even penetrated into the court building??

I utterly distrust the OESC observers (not them individually, but the political interpretation said by the OESC), and the EU's or US's stances are worth no more than Russia's. All of these stances can go to the trash where they belong.

At last, a word of reason from a westerner.

For the matter, I think both candidates are petty suckers which are bad for Ukraine. But the pro-Yushchenko propaganda sickened me into leaning toward Yanukovych... who IMHO wants to be a Putin-like but is way too incompetent for that effect.

Again Ukraine needs candidates that would unify the country, not so dividing as both Yushcheno and Yanukovich.

[Colon™]

They're saying Belgium is an artificial creation too. For almost 175 years already.

[Pekka]

Yes well I agree with you guys that it's not the benefit of Ukraine to be divided into two. Should be unified, which ever it chooses to do.

[The Vagabond]

Belgium
Brussels

Its only shortcoming is that it is the capital of the Evil Union.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I heard Yanukovych will oppose the results to the courts. He claims there are systematic frauds.

I think it's a good idea. If anything, the courts showed their independence as they ordered these new elections. I think THEY are the best ones to decide whether the elections were rigged, or not.

I utterly distrust the OESC observers (not them individually, but the political interpretation said by the OESC), and the EU's or US's stances are worth no more than Russia's. All of these stances can go to the trash where they belong..

Spiff, how have the stances of the US and EU gone beyond whats justified by the OSCE observers, who you say you do trust as individuals? Serb and Vag are at least consistent - they say the OSCE observers are liars. If they OSCE observers are NOT liars, how could the US and EU have taken different stances from what they did?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Colon
They're saying Belgium is an artificial creation too. For almost 175 years already.

And it has stayed true for all that time

I think the main reason why Belgium didn't separate is because of the wide autonomy of both parts, and because you don't have a "winner-takes-all" president.

Ukraine is fortunately taking the past of a more "consensual" democracy, rather than a "majoritarian" one, but this change has been prompted by the election crisis: there has been a reform giving more power to the Parliament and less power to the President.
But even then, Ukraine has a long way to go to be a viable and united political entity, when there are mediocre leaders such as the ones who candidated this year. Belgium or Canada could be good inspiration for Ukraine's institutional evolutions.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I heard Yanukovych will oppose the results to the courts. He claims there are systematic frauds.

I think it's a good idea. If anything, the courts showed their independence as they ordered these new elections. I think THEY are the best ones to decide whether the elections were rigged, or not.

I utterly distrust the OESC observers (not them individually, but the political interpretation said by the OESC), and the EU's or US's stances are worth no more than Russia's. All of these stances can go to the trash where they belong..

Spiff, how have the stances of the US and EU gone beyond whats justified by the OSCE observers, who you say you do trust as individuals? Serb and Vag are at least consistent - they say the OSCE observers are liars. If they OSCE observers are NOT liars, how could the US and EU have taken different stances from what they did?

I understand you dont like the cold war sounding rhetoric from some of the superficial voices in the West - though I dont think you get that from ANYONE whos delved seriously into the matter.

[Serb]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


1. the partitioning of even artificial creations can be a horrible process. People are intermarried, there are mixed areas, esp capitals, etc. If there is any possibility of keeping Ukraine together, that should be attempted.

The possibilty of keeping Ukraine together can be even worse. Such possibility might mean thousands of dead people.

2. IIUC Yuschenko did better this time around in the east, esp in Kharkiv.

Not at all. Yanukovich clearly won at southern and eastern Ukraine. About 15 million Ukranians (who produce 80% of Ukrainan GDP, I'll never tire to remaind this over and over again) are very unhappy about their candidate being robbed with victory.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Serb


Not at all. Yanukovich clearly won at southern and eastern Ukraine. About 15 million Ukranians (who produce 80% of Ukrainan GDP, I'll never tire to remaind this over and over again) are very unhappy about their candidate being robbed with victory.

Source? That implies a GDP per capita of over 4 times as high in eastern Ukraine as in western.

[Heresson]

Seriously, the division (except for Dniepropetrowsk I guess) has some reflection in history; the part that voted for Juszczenko is part that used to belong to Poland once (until second half of XVII century), and the part that voted for Janukowicz are the grounds that were conquered by Russia from Muslims.

[Colon™]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I think the main reason why Belgium didn't separate is because of the wide autonomy of both parts, and because you don't have a "winner-takes-all" president.

This wide regional autonomy is something very recent and Belgium has been a centralised, unitary state during most of its history. (without or with few guarantees to the rights of "cultural minorities")

[edit] You're right we're (not yet?) risking tussles like the one in Ukrain at the moment though.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Spiffor

And it has stayed true for all that time

I think the main reason why Belgium didn't separate is because of the wide autonomy of both parts, and because you don't have a "winner-takes-all" president.

This is the problem for Ukraine- she isn't a federation and there is no autonomy for regions. So either she will become an authonomy or she will collapse sooner or later (or become a dictatorship as third possibility).

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



Most Americans like Russians - even during the cold war, I think most of us liked Russians as people. I dont think the Euros feel worse towards you.

What makes you think that? My, entirely unscientific, impression is that russophobia is still pretty common in Europe.

ObAnecdotal: As a kid, my mother was told the Russians would take her if she did not behave.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

What makes you think that? My, entirely unscientific, impression is that russophobia is still pretty common in Europe.

ObAnecdotal: As a kid, my mother was told the Russians would take her if she did not behave.

well then, I think we may be different on that, then.