The Offseason Baseball Thread

[Imran Siddiqui]

2 years of statistics worked a little, but there is no statistic on how a team will respond down 0-3. if that team had no chemistry and woulda given up, then no title. your statistics brought them some of the way, but its always chemistry and teamwork that brings them the rest, which is why we should keep this team togther. computers can never calculate heart and never-say-die attitude

The Red Sox did have heart, but usually those players who have high OBP and aren't the great average guys (ie, the Jamesian, Moneyball guys) are those that have heart because, since OBP is such an underrated stat, they've had to fight to get where they are... and to get a high OBP, a lot of times you have to fight the pitcher (fouling off pitches).

Oakland has been a pretty chippy team as well.

And so far Moneyball has worked. Oakland just barely missed the playoffs for the first time in years while being near the bottom in payroll with Billy Beane at the helm. The Dodgers with Paul DePodesta (the one you say is fleecing the Yanks) built LA into NL West champs for the first time in years. And in Boston, Theo Epstein freaking WON THE WORLD SERIES FOR THE RED SOX!

The only one who isn't doing that good is J.P. Riccardi in Toronto.

3 out of 4 ain't bad.

pedro said, if the sox had guaranteed 3 years last week, he woulda taken it. but instead they wanted to nickle and dime him.

Yeah, he SAYS... why should I believe him? It was all about money. He had no loyalty, why should the Sox?

as for cabrera, as soon as they got him, they went on a huge winning streak. if you wathced in the clbhouse, him and manny got on famously. his acquisition turned the sox around.

No, it was after they got rid of Nomar, they went on a tear. Look at the season. Before Nomar came back and after he was dealt, the Sox were amazing. Remember, they were #1 in the league before Nomar came back from injury.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

The Red Sox did have heart, but usually those players who have high OBP and aren't the great average guys (ie, the Jamesian, Moneyball guys) are those that have heart because, since OBP is such an underrated stat, they've had to fight to get where they are... and to get a high OBP, a lot of times you have to fight the pitcher (fouling off pitches).

what? bonds doesnt have any heart. i dont know how you can say this. theres no evidence that OBP guys have more heart than the usual player.

Oakland has been a pretty chippy team as well.

not in 04 when they crashed and burned in september. and they are all obp guys.

Yeah, he SAYS... why should I believe him? It was all about money. He had no loyalty, why should the Sox?

why shouldnt we? innocent before guilty. i havnt seen him lie.

No, it was after they got rid of Nomar, they went on a tear. Look at the season. Before Nomar came back and after he was dealt, the Sox were amazing. Remember, they were #1 in the league before Nomar came back from injury.

the sox always start fast. nomar wasnt a clubhouse guy, which is why things fell apart. too much tension, too much stress. cabrera was a clubhouse guy who not only brought in leather, also buyed into the entire clubhouse feel (remember nomar never shaved his head in 03 when we cowboyed up) if cabrera doesnt buy in, then we have another nomar situation. bill james couldnt tell you that he would fit in. it just happened.

[-Jrabbit]

Gammons gave out a great stat this morning.
Over the last 6 years, Oakland has averaged 95 wins with a payroll averaging in the bottom 5 in baseball.

That is freaking amazing, especially considering all the ex-A's we see in the All-Star game every year.

Re Seattle's re-load --
1. They are hurting for pitching.
2. Beltre is hugely overpriced.
3. And probably overrated.

But they will score some runs!

[Arrian]

theo, bill james, imran siddiqui, all look at numbers too much and have human element in it. they dont care about clubhouse chemistry.

I cannot ****ing believe you made this argument without laughing so hard at yourself that your typing was all messed up.

NEWSFLASH: Theo, Bill James (who has a minor roll), et al. put together a team that won the World Series. And they went through some excellent teams to do it (each had flaws, certainly, but the Angels, Yankees and Cardinals were all very stong teams).

This silly sentimental bull**** about "chemistry" is the reason some teams never seem to get their **** together. Chemistry comes from WINNING. And seriously, who gives a flying **** about great chemistry on a losing team? Hell, if my team is getting smacked around consistently, I'm not really sure I WANT them to be all happy-go-lucky about it!

Nomar got traded for 3 reasons:

1) He was hurt, and because of that his defensive abilities had gone to ****.

2) He indicated he might not play a whole lot down the stretch. Whether that was injury or "injury" isn't particularly relevant. There's no point in having a SS who is gonna play 60-70% of your games, when you can have another guy play them all, provided that "other guy" is pretty good. Cabrera is pretty good.

3) Discontent. Yeah, I'm sure it played a roll.

Theo understood that the Sox's defense was hurting them. It wasn't quite as bad as it looked there for a while, but it definitely hurt them. And I think it had gotten into people's heads (especially some of the pitchers - Derek Lowe being a key example). Thus, change had to be made. He did the smart thing.

But yeah, he's a fool who only looks at numbers. Ya gotta feel that love up there in Boston!

trust me, im an athlete, i know.

You see a tree or two. Theo sees a forest.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
Gammons gave out a great stat this morning.
Over the last 6 years, Oakland has averaged 95 wins with a payroll averaging in the bottom 5 in baseball.

That is freaking amazing, especially considering all the ex-A's we see in the All-Star game every year.

What Oakland has done is freaking amazing. But remember, they just look at stats and therefore they actually suck.

-Arrian

[GePap]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

I think his business would be irrevocably hurt by pulling out of the Bronx. The Yankees are built on TRADITION. Leave the Bronx for Long Island, or Jersey, and you destroy that tradition. If Steinbrenner thinks the hard core Yankee fans will stick the team if it ever moves, even if just outside the city, then he is a fool.

If you think Yankee fans would abandon the team and not go to games if he left for greener pastures then you are a fool. Tradition of a crumbling stadium in the Bronx wouldn't matter a whit as soon as the super-incredible park was first seen. You think Red Sox fans will abandon the team after the New Fenway is built? Not a chance.

The most ardent Yankee fans, the Bleacher Bums, the guys who come by subway to sit out there exposed and see a Yankee game-they are not all of a sudden going to get on a car and drive to Nassau to sit in some modern monstrosity of a park-which won't be in New York City because the public won't stand for it (Mets fans are going to shell out their tax dollars for Steinbrenner). Besides, I assume New Fenway remains in Boston. Steinbrenner is not going to get a new stadium out of NYC, so he would need to move out. Hard to be the Bronx Bombers in nassau or bergen counties.

Besides, there are no Greener pastures. There is a reason why the Jets are trying to get back into NYC after thinking of the greener pastures of Jersey, or why the Nets are moving to Brooklyn.

[Brundlefly]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

By the way, in general I'm totally on the side of the city. Teams should *not* get public funding for their stadiums.

Then they have to right to go somewhere else.

People buy teams. They shouldn't have to buy the package of a stadium in order to own a team.

MLB Teams = corporations. Should a city provide public funding for a corporation to build a skyscraper to use as its headquarters? Thats what we are talking about. I dont know if there is any precedent for that. I know Comcast has tried to strongarm Philly into doing just that and the city has flatly rejected them..

[GePap]

I doubt Yankee Stadium, Wrigley Field, or Fenway were built primarily with public money. If fact, I would be surprised if public money played anything but a bit part in all of those. Teams can very well borrow the money to build a new stadium, if their business is so good. i am sure institutional investors would be delighted.

[Arrian]

The other advantage to forcing teams to build their own stadiums is that they then have a powerful incentive to stick around and get a return on their investment, instead of bolting to a new locale.

Of course, if a few cities have the balls to say "no" and a bunch of others fall all over themselves to offer publicly-funded stadiums...

-Arrian

[GePap]

Its disgusting that public funds be used for private benefit. As for the increased tax revenu bit, how long exactly do cities take to make back an investement so massive? Its public subsidies of the worst kind.

[Arrian]

Agreed.

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

what? bonds doesnt have any heart. i dont know how you can say this. theres no evidence that OBP guys have more heart than the usual player.

Bonds doesn't have any heart? Are you insane? There is not guy out there who works as hard. He's one of those people out at batting practice at insane hours.

OBP guys have more heart because they work at the plate instead of just swinging away.

not in 04 when they crashed and burned in september. and they are all obp guys.

Crashed and burned? Not their hitting, which remained strong. Oakland lost out because their pitching hit 5+ ERA. And they still had 91 wins. What crashing and burning?

why shouldnt we? innocent before guilty. i havnt seen him lie.

You just did when he said it wasn't because of money .

the sox always start fast.

Which is why the year before they were the #1 team when April ended? Sorry, they played good before Nomar and after Nomar. Nothing to do with Cabrera.

The most ardent Yankee fans, the Bleacher Bums, the guys who come by subway to sit out there exposed and see a Yankee game-they are not all of a sudden going to get on a car and drive to Nassau to sit in some modern monstrosity of a park-which won't be in New York City because the public won't stand for it

I seriously doubt it. A new park in Nassau or Jersey will sell out just as much as the Bronx. In fact, when the Yanks start sucking again, it'll probably draw more than the Bronx did in the 80s. Not only will they go to the games out there, they'll have more fun in a totally redesigned new park with modern anmenities. And the train goes to Jersey.

The reason the Jets are trying to move back to New York is because New Jersey won't give them another part. They are trying to see if they can appeal to New York City to get football back 'in the city' to get themselves the new park they want (so they don't have to share in a park named for the other team).

MLB Teams = corporations. Should a city provide public funding for a corporation to build a skyscraper to use as its headquarters? Thats what we are talking about. I dont know if there is any precedent for that. I know Comcast has tried to strongarm Philly into doing just that and the city has flatly rejected them..

If that corporation is considered a main source of civic pride and brings people in the city together to such an extent as sports teams do, then yeah. Sports teams more than a vast majority of things make people feel loyalty to a city. There is always the connection with the city BECAUSE of the sports team. That kind of loyalty and civic pride is worth paying for a stadium for most cities.

[Stuie]

Good to see Pedro making a gracious exit...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/baseball/mlb/12/17/pedro.redsox.ap/index.html

[Imran Siddiqui]

Wonder if LoA is going to defend Pedro now .

[Lawrence of Arabia]

NEWSFLASH: Theo, Bill James (who has a minor roll), et al. put together a team that won the World Series. And they went through some excellent teams to do it (each had flaws, certainly, but the Angels, Yankees and Cardinals were all very stong teams).

and the angels, yankees, and cards didnt have as much heart and chemistry. remember when you were up 3- 0 in the ALCS? can a computer put together a team that will come back from that deficit, who have the heart and chemistry to do it? i dont think so.

This silly sentimental bull**** about "chemistry" is the reason some teams never seem to get their **** together. Chemistry comes from WINNING. And seriously, who gives a flying **** about great chemistry on a losing team? Hell, if my team is getting smacked around consistently, I'm not really sure I WANT them to be all happy-go-lucky about it!

good chemistry can make a bad team good (look at panthers and all their injuries, thats heart) and can make a good team great (red sox) it can put you over the top or it can sink you if you dont have it and fold at the first sign of adversity.

Theo understood that the Sox's defense was hurting them. It wasn't quite as bad as it looked there for a while, but it definitely hurt them. And I think it had gotten into people's heads (especially some of the pitchers - Derek Lowe being a key example). Thus, change had to be made. He did the smart thing.

and if he brings in someone who isnt a good clubhouse guy, nothing will have changed, since there will still be that negativity hanging around, putting doubt into other players minds.

You see a tree or two. Theo sees a forest.


You see a tree or two. Theo sees a forest.

theo doesnt see the forest. he only sees pages of numbers.

Good to see Pedro making a gracious exit...

you guys arnd seeing it. theres a trend here and the trend is that the team doesnt treat its members well as they leave. everyone whose left has always been mistreated (rocket, denis eckersley etc) and this is just more of this. the word gets around the league
look at how the FO smeared nomar when they traded him. there was no need for that. the FO arnt people oriented (why should they, they look at computers all day and have no people skills) and then no one wants to come play for us. its a trend and that needs to change