Over 50% of Germans equate IDF with Nazi army

[chequita guevara]

That's pretty much standard New Israeli history.

[notyoueither]

Well, aside from the absurd assertion that a state that had just been created outnumbered Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, et al., in military forces...

Who attacked whom?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Well, aside from the absurd assertion that a state that had just been created outnumbered Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, et al., in military forces...

You are assuming those states sent their entire militaries to invade Palestine. This was not the case. The Arab states sent only about 20,000 troops to invade, while Israel already had 23,000 from years of fighting with Great Britain.

Whom attacked whom?

Depends on which state. Lebanon never attacked Israel. They simply occupied the portion of Galilee that was to be given to Palestine. Syria attacked Israel near the Sea of Galilee. They claimed that portion of Palestine based on French maps and an unresolved Anglo-French dispute. The Israelis managed to destroy one Syrian tank and the Syrian force turned around. In the West Bank area, Israel attacked Iraqi and Jordanian positions, but were unable to dislodge them.

Egypt sent two colomns into Israel, and they seem to be the one state that made a serious attack on Israel, but seriously underestimating them, as they sent only 5,000 soldiers to attack through Gaza towards Ashdod. The second column, interestingly enough, was not sent to attack the Israelis, but rather to counter the Jordanians, whom the Egyptians (rightfully) suspected were trying to annex Arab Palestine. They were not involed in any hostilities agains the Israelis until October, and the second cease-fire was broken by Israel.

In Jerusalem, the Israelis and the Arab Legaue had been fighting since 1947, with both sides trying to take the whole thing, and both failing.

Prior to the Israeli declaration of Independence, Israeli froces had been moving beyond theyr designated borders and seizing Arab territory. So to answer your question of who attacked whom, the best answer is all sides attacked Palestine and got involved in a fight over the scraps.

This isn't to say the Jews weren't in danger. Settlements in outlying areas, if they didn't flee, were destroyed and slaughtered. On the other hand, the Israelis in an ironic echo of the threat to "throw the Jews into the sea" actually did throw the Arabs into the sea in one city, and sent the Arab dwellers in another town on a death march across the desert. It was a very nasty and brutal war, and both sides have legitmate greiveances. And there will be no peace until both sides can get of them.

[Kropotkin]

Originally posted by notyoueither So what? Some Zionist lunatics might have had dreams. That does not negate the fact that Israel has defended itself in the face of aggression for the most part.

So what, most Germans where probably not Nazi lunatics. That they where attacked doesn't exacly negate the fact that some Israelis wanted the land in the first place on the basis of their ideology. Should they be stupid and not take the land when it's given to them on a plate?

But to be fair, it's not exacly an exlusive position for national socialists and zionists; It's an attitude showed by most jingoistic nationalists.*

_______
* No, I would not say that all Zionists are jingoists.

[Dinner]

Che: The Israelis never directly engaged the British in classical military combat. They used terrorist attacks and a few hit and run attacks and those were strictly the actions of a tiny minority.

The Arabs never moved their entire forces into Israel proper because they were attempting to flank the Israelis but their forces in Israel got flanked first. They were always just across the border and they fully planned to use them. The Jews just didn't give them a chance to use them.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Originally posted by notyoueither
Well, aside from the absurd assertion that a state that had just been created outnumbered Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, et al., in military forces...

You are assuming those states sent their entire militaries to invade Palestine. This was not the case. The Arab states sent only about 20,000 troops to invade, while Israel already had 23,000 from years of fighting with Great Britain.

Whom attacked whom?

Depends on which state. Lebanon never attacked Israel. They simply occupied the portion of Galilee that was to be given to Palestine. Syria attacked Israel near the Sea of Galilee. They claimed that portion of Palestine based on French maps and an unresolved Anglo-French dispute. The Israelis managed to destroy one Syrian tank and the Syrian force turned around. In the West Bank area, Israel attacked Iraqi and Jordanian positions, but were unable to dislodge them.

Egypt sent two colomns into Israel, and they seem to be the one state that made a serious attack on Israel, but seriously underestimating them, as they sent only 5,000 soldiers to attack through Gaza towards Ashdod. The second column, interestingly enough, was not sent to attack the Israelis, but rather to counter the Jordanians, whom the Egyptians (rightfully) suspected were trying to annex Arab Palestine. They were not involed in any hostilities agains the Israelis until October, and the second cease-fire was broken by Israel.

In Jerusalem, the Israelis and the Arab Legaue had been fighting since 1947, with both sides trying to take the whole thing, and both failing.

Prior to the Israeli declaration of Independence, Israeli froces had been moving beyond theyr designated borders and seizing Arab territory. So to answer your question of who attacked whom, the best answer is all sides attacked Palestine and got involved in a fight over the scraps.

This isn't to say the Jews weren't in danger. Settlements in outlying areas, if they didn't flee, were destroyed and slaughtered. On the other hand, the Israelis in an ironic echo of the threat to "throw the Jews into the sea" actually did throw the Arabs into the sea in one city, and sent the Arab dwellers in another town on a death march across the desert. It was a very nasty and brutal war, and both sides have legitmate greiveances. And there will be no peace until both sides can get of them.

Bull****.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Kropotkin

So what, most Germans where probably not Nazi lunatics. That they where attacked doesn't exacly negate the fact that some Israelis wanted the land in the first place on the basis of their ideology. Should they be stupid and not take the land when it's given to them on a plate?

But to be fair, it's not exacly an exlusive position for national socialists and zionists; It's an attitude showed by most jingoistic nationalists.*

_______
* No, I would not say that all Zionists are jingoists.

Are you a neo Nazi poster child?

[Drake Tungsten]

No. He just supplies them with iron ore.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Che: The Israelis never directly engaged the British in classical military combat. They used terrorist attacks and a few hit and run attacks and those were strictly the actions of a tiny minority.

I'm aware of that. Remember, 23,000 is a tiny minority of 650,000 people.

The Arabs never moved their entire forces into Israel proper because they were attempting to flank the Israelis but their forces in Israel got flanked first. They were always just across the border and they fully planned to use them. The Jews just didn't give them a chance to use them.

Uhm, no.

The Israelis didn't outflank anyone. They were better armed (which really says something about the Arabs--except for the Arab Legion), and had much higher moral, and more actual combat experience. The Israelis were generally better able to bring more forces to bear in a given area, since the Arab states did not coordinate their attacks, since they weren't seriously engaged in a war against Israel (which they underestimated) and were instead participating in a land grab, as everyone knew that Palestine didn't have a viable state.

The Arabs never made a serious attempt to destroy Israel, even in 1973, when it was actually possible (had Jordan joined in). Egypt knew it was limited to ten miles from the canal zone, the range of its anti-air missiles, which means they weren't going too far. If it hadn't been for the pounding Syria was taking, Egypt wouldn't have moved out from under that cover.

In '48, the Arabs held the majority of their forces back, for a variety of reasons. One, they were newly indpendent and not terribly secure from their own populations, they didn't have the logisitics to handle that many troops, they didn't have the supplies to equip that many troops, most of their troops weren't even trained, they terribly understimated the abilties of the Israelis, and they didn't want to get involved in a real war with each other over the division of Palestine. Had they been seriously trying to destroy Israel, then they would have massively bulked up their forces during the casefires, which they never did (though they did increase them, they did not do so as quickly as the Israelis did). Finally, if the Arabs had massive forces sitting across the border waiting to be used, Why did the Israelis so easily trounce the Egyptians in the Sinai in Dec. '48?

Israel was every bit as much of a predetory state as its neighbors. It was just better at it.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Bull****.

And thus I am refuted.

Just cuz I don't suck Israel's dick doesn't mean I'm FoS. You might try studying the New Israeli Historians, if you want a non-hagiographic version of their history, Machiavelian warts and all. I highly suggest Benny Morris, who is not very sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, BTW. In fact, he's down right unsympathetic. He is, however, intellectually honest enough to say that Israel did some pretty bastardly **** in its founding and that the Palestinians were screwed by everybody.

edit: spelling fixes.

[notyoueither]

I thought I would cut down on the verbiage.

[notyoueither]

But since you insist...

'They were better armed'

Oh? Exactly how many tanks did they have? How many aircraft? Who was arming them, and with what?

[RGBVideo]

Hit'n'run post follows:

Bull****.

Are you a neo Nazi poster child?

First an answer to a > 500 word post which only contains one swear word, then a personal attack which invokes Godwin's law.

I at your superior 1337 debating sk1llz, notyoueither.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Just cuz I don't suck Israel's dick doesn't mean I'm FoS. You might try studying the New Israeli Historians, if you want a non-hgiographic versio of their history, Machiavelian warts and all. I hgihly suggest Benny Morris, who is not very sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, BTW. In fact, he's down right unsympathetic. He is, however, intellectually honest enough to say that Israel did some pretty bastardly **** in its founding and that the Palestinians were screwed by everybody.

You're suckin' someones dick. It sure as hell ain't Israeli, but it's a dick none the less.

[notyoueither]

Re: Hit'n'run post follows:

Originally posted by VJ



First an answer to a > 500 word post which only contains one swear word, then a personal attack which invokes Godwin's law.

I at your superior 1337 debating sk1llz, notyoueither.

Grab a clue, sunshine. He's the dickwad who equated Jews and Israel with the Nazis. I would imagine some dead German chicken farmers would be partying in their graves if they read this thead.

btw, isn't that what this thread is about?