Over 50% of Germans equate IDF with Nazi army

[Dinner]

Originally posted by GePap
If you also read the piece you find out that the motives for each varied greatly, and the whole "drive the Jews to the Sea" was more rhetoric for consumption back home than actual policy-

There policy was to drive the Jews into the sea however the various governments had a hard time individually resupplying their armies and none of the commanders would agree to take orders from the other Arab commanders. The result was gridlock and when supplies ran low they dug in and stopped their offensives. Does anyone doubt that given a chance to resupply they would have gone on the defensive?

Also as I stated previously large Arab armies such as the Iraqi Army on the west bank could have invaded Israel and broken the state in two but that Army held back our of fear they would then be cut off by the Israelis and/or the Palestinian fighters with home the commanding General had an open dispute.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Oerdin, those numbers are [i[way[/i] off.

I've showen my source and the original Weikpedia drew the numbers from. What are you basing your force estimates on?

To clarify these are the manpower numbers and cover the second phase: April 1, 1948 - May 15, 1948

Over the next few days, approximately 10,000 Lebanese, 60,000 Syrian, 4,500 Iraqi, 50,500 Egyptian, 60,000-90,000 Transjordanian troops and unknown number of Saudi and Yemenite troops invaded Israel. Together with the few thousand irregular Arab soldiers, they faced an Israeli Zionist army numbering 30,000-35,000. Both sides increased their manpower over the following months, but the Israeli advantage grew steadily.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
There policy was to drive the Jews into the sea

Actually it was a statement by the commander of the Arab Liberation Army. In reality, it was the Israelis who threw the Arabs of Jaffa into the sea, where they had to be evacuated by Egyptian boats.

Does anyone doubt that given a chance to resupply they would have gone on the defensive?

I assume you meant offensive, and given that they did resupply and didn't resume the offensive (the Egyptians did after the first cease-fre, but that's it), you question must be answered in the negative.

Also as I stated previously large Arab armies such as the Iraqi Army

All 4,500 of them?

I've previously shown where my numbers came from. Go back and reread.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
To clarify these are the manpower numbers and cover the second phase: April 1, 1948 - May 15, 1948

Third phase, not second. The Arab states didn't invade Palestine until May 16.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Weikpedia's account is very similiar to Gepap's for the first two phases but does not confirm his count on the numbers nor that Israel had larger forces.

[q]...

The third phase it does give very clear numbers.

[q]
Third phase: May 15, 1948 - June 11, 1948
On May 14, the British Mandate expired. The State of Israel declared itself as an independent nation, and was quickly recognized by the Soviet Union, the United States, and many other countries.

Over the next few days, approximately 10,000 Lebanese, 60,000 Syrian, 4,500 Iraqi, 50,500 Egyptian, 60,000-90,000 Transjordanian troops and unknown number of Saudi and Yemenite troops invaded Israel. Together with the few thousand irregular Arab soldiers, they faced an Israeli Zionist army numbering 30,000-35,000. Both sides increased their manpower over the following months, but the Israeli advantage grew steadily.[q/]

the problem with wik is... who wrote it? For general history of peaceful events, like Canada's Prime Ministers, it can be a good guide. However, when the issue is controversial and charged many grains of salt need be applied. Finding 'the truth' is difficult enough when dealing with professional historians who have bodies of work that can be looked at to establish biases and proclivities. It is next to impossible when the author is an anonymous muse on the internet.

The author of GePaps lengthy sites is a 'radical' among Jewish historians. His writing is very sympathetic to the 'other side'. Interstingly, one can witness a cat fight between him and the 'founder' of what Che calls the 'new' history on the Guardian.

Incidently, I read the bits you quoted. Did you miss the apparent contradiction in the final paragraph I quoted of your quote? I sum up over 100,000 Arabs. How could the Israeli 'advantage' grow when they didn't seem to have an advantage to begin with?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


That's called West Galilee. You'll also note that almost every major battle took place outside the area designated to be Israel. Israel was on the offensive just as much as the Arabs were.

There he goes again...

Pray tell, how was Syria attacking outside the areas alotted to Israel when they didn't border any Palestinian ones?

[notyoueither]

PS. Here's a map.

http://www.dean.usma.edu/history/web03/atlases/arab%20israeli/arab%20israeli%20pages/arab%20israeli%20wars%20map%2036.htm

[GePap]

Thos number for Arab forces are beyond absurd.

60 to 90 thousand members of the Arab Legion!? Its laughable.

http://homepages.force9.net/rothwell/trans-jo.htm

Has the whole history of the Arab legion- note that by 1948 it had 10,000 member, and this was THE Jordanian army.

Whomever says 90,000 Jordanina troops invaded is an utter fool.

We invaded Iraq qith 150,000- and that nut is saying the Arabs threw 190,000 men at Israel? I am sorry, you were in Iraq- I would have thought you could see right through such utterly absurd numbers.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by notyoueither


There he goes again...

Pray tell, how was Syria attacking outside the areas alotted to Israel when they didn't border any Palestinian ones?

I never said Syria was. I said Syria was trying to take territory to which it laid claim based on French maps. Israel was given all of the Sea of Galilee and its shores. This is a major source of fresh water in the region, and Syria wanted some of it.

There are troop numbers on the map NYE provided, btw.

Lebanon: 2,000
Syria: 4,000
Iraq: 7,000
Arab Legion (Jordan): 5,000
Egypt: 11,000

Numbers are not given for the Arab Liberation Army, the Saudis, or Yemen.

[notyoueither]

You also said that they went away after the IDF blew up one tank.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Lebanon: 2,000
Syria: 4,000
Iraq: 7,000
Arab Legion (Jordan): 5,000
Egypt: 11,000

Numbers are not given for the Arab Liberation Army, the Saudis, or Yemen.

And if I'm not mistaken, it says 20,000(+) for Israel.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by notyoueither
You also said that they went away after the IDF blew up one tank.

That's in the Wiki article too.

[notyoueither]

You and wiki share the same credibility on this topic?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by notyoueither


And if I'm not mistaken, it says 20,000(+) for Israel.

Zamal's numbers, I'm willing to guess, are just for the Haganah/ IDF and do not include the Lehi or Irgun.

The numbers that Wiki gives are for almost 200,000 invading Arab troops. Even if we quibble about a few thousand soldiers here or there, we can agree that 200K+ is an insane number.

[notyoueither]

Yes we can. I hope we can agree that the the IDF being double the invaders is also absurd.