Over 50% of Germans equate IDF with Nazi army

[MrFun]

You mean it's not a double KO?

[GePap]

No, Gepap PZNZ NYE.

I don;t know, his attitude got to me. Plus, this is really the best piece on it I have seen on the net.

[MrFun]

[chequita guevara]

Eep: I have written Arab League several times where I meant Arab Legion.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by GePap
No, Gepap PZNZ NYE.

I don;t know, his attitude got to me. Plus, this is really the best piece on it I have seen on the net.

Uhh, yeah right.

If you hadn't noticed, I was arguing with Che for the most part, largely over things he said, like

Depends on which state. Lebanon never attacked Israel. They simply occupied the portion of Galilee that was to be given to Palestine. Syria attacked Israel near the Sea of Galilee. They claimed that portion of Palestine based on French maps and an unresolved Anglo-French dispute. The Israelis managed to destroy one Syrian tank and the Syrian force turned around.

Contrast that with

In the north, the Syrians crossed into Israel just south of the Sea of Galilee and captured Zemah, Sha’ar ha-Golan, and Massadah before being stopped at Degania. They retreated, regrouped, and launched another offensive a week later north of the Sea of Galilee. This time they captured Mishmar Hayardem, establishing a foothold on the Israeli side of the Jordan river, from which the IDF was unable to dislodge them. While the Syrians were fighting in the Jordan Valley, the Lebanese forces broke through the eastern gateway from Lebanon to Israel and captured Malkiya and Kadesh. IDF operations behind the lines and against villages inside Lebanon succeeded in halting the Lebanese offensive. By the end of May the IDF had recaptured Malkiya and Kadesh and forced the Lebanese army on the defensive.

from what looks to be a fairly good piece that you linked.

Keep in mind though that the piece you linked does indicate the predicament that Israel was in during the initial battles.

...By the end of the first week in June a clear stalemate had developed on the central front and a similarly inconclusive situation prevailed on all the other fronts. The UN truce came into force on 11 June. To the Israelis it came, in Moshe Carmel's words, like dew from heaven. Though they had succeeded in halting the Arab invasion, their fighting forces were stretched to the limit and badly needed a respite to rest, reorganize, and train new recruits. On the Israeli side, the four weeks truce was also used to bring in large shipments of arms from abroad in contravention of the UN embargo--tanks, armored cars, artillery, and aircraft. On the Arab side, the truce was largely wasted. No serious preparations were made by any of the Arab countries to reorganize and re-equip their armies so that they would be better placed in the event of hostilities being resumed. The UN arms embargo applied in theory to all the combatants but in practice it hurt the Arabs and helped Israel because the Western powers observed it whereas the Soviet bloc did not. Consequently, the first truce was a turning-point in the history of the war. It witnessed a decisive shift in the balance of forces in favor of Israel.

In other words, the Israelis were outgunned and were hard pressed to stop the initial invasion.The truce came and they used the time to gain an advantage in material over their Arab opponents. They pressed that advantage during later phases of the war.

Now, where does any of it say that Israel was not attacked at birth by 5 other nations? That is what started this off, btw.

TBH, I had never heard that the Israelis had a numrical advantage over the Arabs, so I learned something, sort of. However, to this point I still have not seen numbers to back that up. Also, I'd like to know how many Palestinian irregulars they had to contend with at the same time.

But whatever, if you wish to 'PZNZ' someone feel free to flatter yourself.

[notyoueither]

PS.I found this summary of equipment. Not sure how accurate it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War

Tanks: 1 w/o cannon to the IDF vs 40 to the Arabs.
Armored cars (w/ cannon): 2 to the IDF vs 200 to the Arabs.
Armored cars (w/o cannon): 120 to the IDF vs 300 to the Arabs.
Artillery: 5 to the IDF vs 140 to the Arabs.
AA and AT guns: 24 to the IDF vs 220 to the Arabs.
Warplanes: 0 to the IDF vs 74 to the Arabs.
Scout planes: 28 to the IDF vs 57 to the Arabs.
Navy (armed ships): 3 to the IDF vs 12 to the Arabs.
(Source: Yeuda Wallach, "Not on a silver plate")

It says those were the numbers on May 15.

[GePap]

The piece has all the numbers of forces-read the whole thing.

Now, where does any of it say that Israel was not attacked at birth by 5 other nations? That is what started this off, btw.

The issue is one of myth, not history.

One problem you have is, what was Israel? You sdeem to ingore the UN partition order. What Che said is valid if you realize that from the time the UN partition was delcared to the time British soverign rule ended in name (it had ended long before in fact), the Jewish forces were moving to consolidate territory granted to the Palestinians-the Palestinians refugee crisis began before the Neighboring arab states invaded-because teh IDF waqs pushing Palestinians out of their territory. He is wrong in that the portion of the Vordan Valley the Syrians moved into was meant to be Jewish, but the Galillee was supposed to be Palestinian. Refer to the following map:



If you also read the piece you find out that the motives for each varied greatly, and the whole "drive the Jews to the Sea" was more rhetoric for consumption back home than actual policy- 'Abdullah's aim to annex as much of Palestine for himself is obvious.

Also, being invaded by 5 states is hard- being invaded by five unified states with one singular aim and desire and throwing all they had into the fight thought is a vast difference from being attacked by five states with disperate aims, willing to stab each other in the back in in fact at the end of the day more worried about each other than the enemy on the ground.

[GePap]

Originally posted by notyoueither
PS.I found this summary of equipment. Not sure how accurate it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War

Tanks: 1 w/o cannon to the IDF vs 40 to the Arabs.
Armored cars (w/ cannon): 2 to the IDF vs 200 to the Arabs.
Armored cars (w/o cannon): 120 to the IDF vs 300 to the Arabs.
Artillery: 5 to the IDF vs 140 to the Arabs.
AA and AT guns: 24 to the IDF vs 220 to the Arabs.
Warplanes: 0 to the IDF vs 74 to the Arabs.
Scout planes: 28 to the IDF vs 57 to the Arabs.
Navy (armed ships): 3 to the IDF vs 12 to the Arabs.
(Source: Yeuda Wallach, "Not on a silver plate")

It says those were the numbers on May 15.

Yes, on the very beginning of the war- which as the article points out was before the IDF got any weapons.

Are those troops in theater, or overall military strength? Remember again that the Arab states did not send their full forces into the fight.

[notyoueither]

And remember, the Israelis had zero tanks and zero combat aircraft.

I'm not disputing that they got equipped, later. I'm not disputing that they cleaned the clocks of the Arabs, in the end.

I am pointing out that it was Israel that was attacked, not the other way around.

[GePap]

Did you look at the Map?

What was Israel? Take for example the battle for Jerusalem- Israel was not supposed to get Jerusalem at all-or the Galilee, or large sections of the Negev- how is an ASrab army going into as territory that was designated by the UN as Palestinians attacking Israel?

UNLESS between the 1947 partition, and the end of the Mandate, the Israelis took actions to take over land that had been designated for the Palestinians, driving the population out. NOte as well that Israel did not declare itself independent and declare any specific borders.

In the end, the people who were attacked by 6 states were the Palestinians.

[notyoueither]

Did you look at the map? Where is the Galilee?

[GePap]

I think you are right- I am thinking of the Yellow triangle bordering Lebanon on the Map, but the Galilee area is closer to the lake. My bad.

[Dinner]

Weikpedia's account is very similiar to Gepap's for the first two phases but does not confirm his count on the numbers nor that Israel had larger forces.

First phase: November 29, 1947 - April 1, 1948
Right after the UN partition plan was approved, heavy fighting broke out in Palestine. The British Army frequently intervened, but as the end of British involvement in Palestine drew nearer and attacks on them by Irgun and Lehi increased, their intervention grew steadily more inconsistent and reluctant.

On December 18 the Palmach, the kibbutz-based force of the Haganah commanded by Moshe Dayan, attacked the village of Khissas. Three weeks later the first Arab irregulars arrived and the Arab leadership began to organize Palestinians in order to wage guerrilla war against the Jewish forces. The largest group was a volunteer army, the Arab Liberation Army, created by the Arab League and led by Arab nationalist Fawzi Al-Qawuqji. In January and February, Arab irregular forces attacked Jewish communities in northern Palestine but achieved no substantial successes.

The Arabs concentrated their efforts on cutting off roads to Jewish towns and Jewish neighborhoods in areas with mixed populations. The Arabs massacred several Jewish convoys, the most notable was the Hadassah medical convoy massacre in April. At the end of March, the Arabs completely cut off the vital road going from Tel-Aviv to Jerusalem where one sixth of Palestine's Jews lived.

The Haganah armed itself with arms bought from Czechoslovakia. The Yishuv began working on a plan called Plan Dalet (or Plan D).

[edit]
Second phase: April 1, 1948 - May 15, 1948
Jewish forces proved to be militarily stronger than the Arabs expected, and by May their forces were counterattacking Arab towns and villages, especially those controlling roads to isolated Jewish populations.

The road to Jerusalem was interdicted by Arab fighters located in the villages surrounding the road. The city of Jerusalem was under siege by the Arabs. Numerous convoys of trucks bringing food and other supplies to the besieged city were attacked. In Operation Nachshon, the Haganah continued its attacks on Arab fighters co-located with civilians, and temporarily opened the road to Jerusalem (April 20).

Some of these villages along Jerusalem road were attacked and demolished. The April 9 massacre of at least 109 Palestinian civilians at the village of Deir Yassin inflamed public opinion in Arab countries, providing those countries further reason for sending regular troops into the conflict.

To lift the siege, the Jewish forces (guided by the American Army Colonel David (Mickey) Marcus) constructed the Burma Road (named for the road built by the Allies from Burma to China during World War II), a make-shift winding road through the difficult mountains to Jerusalem. The Burma Road allowed the Jewish forces to relieve the Arab siege on June 9, just days before the United Nations negotiated a cease-fire. [1] (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_ind...war_course.php)

Meanwhile, frantic diplomatic activity took place between all parties. On May 10, Golda Meir represented the Yishuv in the last of a long series of clandestine meetings between the Zionists and Transjordan's King Abdullah. Whereas for months there had been a tacit agreement between the Zionists and Transjordan to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, with Transjordan taking over the Arab areas, at the May 10 meeting Abdullah offered the Zionists only autonomy within an enlarged Hashemite kingdom. This was unacceptable to the Zionists. Nevertheless, the Transjordanian army refrained from attacking the designated Jewish areas of Palestine in the ensuing war.

On May 13, the Arab League met and agreed to send regular troops into Palestine when the Mandate expired. Abdullah of Transjordan was named as the commander-in-chief of the Arab armies, but the various Arab armies remained largely uncoordinated throughout the war.

The third phase it does give very clear numbers.

Third phase: May 15, 1948 - June 11, 1948
On May 14, the British Mandate expired. The State of Israel declared itself as an independent nation, and was quickly recognized by the Soviet Union, the United States, and many other countries.

Over the next few days, approximately 10,000 Lebanese, 60,000 Syrian, 4,500 Iraqi, 50,500 Egyptian, 60,000-90,000 Transjordanian troops and unknown number of Saudi and Yemenite troops invaded Israel. Together with the few thousand irregular Arab soldiers, they faced an Israeli Zionist army numbering 30,000-35,000. Both sides increased their manpower over the following months, but the Israeli advantage grew steadily.

On May 26, 1948, the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) was officially established and the Haganah, Palmach and Etzel were dissolved into the army of the young Jewish state.

So the Arab Armies had an over welling superiority in men. What about supplies and heavy equipment?

However, the Arab had clear superiority in heavy arms and firepower. The ordnance on May 15 were as follows:

Tanks: 1 w/o cannon to the IDF vs 40 to the Arabs.
Armored cars (w/ cannon): 2 to the IDF vs 200 to the Arabs.
Armored cars (w/o cannon): 120 to the IDF vs 300 to the Arabs.
Artillery: 5 to the IDF vs 140 to the Arabs.
AA and AT guns: 24 to the IDF vs 220 to the Arabs.
Warplanes: 0 to the IDF vs 74 to the Arabs.
Scout planes: 28 to the IDF vs 57 to the Arabs.
Navy (armed ships): 3 to the IDF vs 12 to the Arabs.
(Source: Yeuda Wallach, "Not on a silver plate")

So even with Czech help the Arabs had vastly more heavy equipment as well as vastly larger Armies.

[Dinner]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War#First_phase:_November_29.2C_1947_-_April_1.2C_1948

Great stuff. Much of it is similiar to Gepap's account but on many key points, especially the numbers of men and equipment, it tells a totally different tail.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by GePap
I think you are right- I am thinking of the Yellow triangle bordering Lebanon on the Map, but the Galilee area is closer to the lake. My bad.

That's called West Galilee. You'll also note that almost every major battle took place outside the area designated to be Israel. Israel was on the offensive just as much as the Arabs were.

Oerdin, those numbers are way off.