Over 50% of Germans equate IDF with Nazi army

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Americans killing Indians wasn't comparable to the holocaust either, because we at least did it just through disease and military force, rather than lining them up and gassing them

We deliberately starved them to death by destroying the buffalo. Life on the Rez was also quite brutal at first, and because the Bureau of Indian Affairs is so damned corrupt (still to this day), much of the food that was supposed to go to the Indians was either sold for the profit of Indian agents or was unfit for human consumption. By the end of the 19th Century, there were only about a quarter million Indians left. One hundred years eariler, there were an estimated three million.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Name a time they've done so when there was no legitimate target being taken out.

So if I kill your whole family to get the criminal who lives next door to you, that's okay by you?

[Kuciwalker]

We deliberately starved them to death by destroying the buffalo.

IIRC, that wasn't deliberately trying to kill the Indians, we just didn't care (in that case). It's still not industrialized murder.

I know atrocities were commited, but they were qualitatively different from the Holocaust.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

We deliberately starved them to death by destroying the buffalo.

IIRC, that wasn't deliberately trying to kill the Indians, we just didn't care (in that case). It's still not industrialized murder.

Yes it was. The military deliberately set out to destroy the buffalo herds, in addition to the civilian slaughter of buffalo. The military knew the plaines Indians depended on buffalo, and used it as a weapon to force them into reservations, by starving them.

I know atrocities were commited, but they were qualitatively different from the Holocaust.

Some of them were, some of them weren't. We were trying to exterminate them, so on that level, we share a bond with the Germans. We actually set out to committ genocide, and like the Germans, we nearly succeeded.

[Kuciwalker]

Yes it was. The military deliberately set out to destroy the buffalo herds, in addition to the civilian slaughter of buffalo. The military knew the plaines Indians depended on buffalo, and used it as a weapon to force them into reservations, by starving them.

I always read that it was to help the railroads, and that the Indians died, but no one cared.

Some of them were, some of them weren't. We were trying to exterminate them, so on that level, we share a bond with the Germans. We actually set out to committ genocide, and like the Germans, we nearly succeeded.

Yes, but the stuff we did is pretty common, historically. What the Germans did is in its own category.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
I always read that it was to help the railroads, and that the Indians died, but no one cared.

Read some more.

Yes, but the stuff we did is pretty common, historically. What the Germans did is in its own category.

If we ignore the Holocaust, what the Germans did was pretty normal, historically. For the most part, the Holocaust was carried out by special units, not Army regulars. At first they tried to use the regular Army, for example the massacre at Baba Yar. But the troops were affected by being forced to slaughter defenseless women and children, so they had to come up with a new method.

I'm not saying IDF = Nazis. But there are similarities.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
The 20% of the Israeli population who are arab which are citizens have no apparteid.

No, but they are third class citizens.

[Kuciwalker]

If we ignore the Holocaust, what the Germans did was pretty normal, historically.

Own goal.

For the most part, the Holocaust was carried out by special units, not Army regulars.

Own goal.

At first they tried to use the regular Army, for example the massacre at Baba Yar. But the troops were affected by being forced to slaughter defenseless women and children, so they had to come up with a new method.

I'm not saying IDF = Nazis. But there are similarities.

You've just pointed out how they're dissimilar.

[GePap]

Oh, the righteous idignation- how the thread drips of it.

Nazi as a term has been highly devalued- hence we have people always cal their opponents Nazi's (like Rush's "Feminazi"). I wonder if the question asked- dou think the IDF acts like one of the following.... and gave several choices, or said something like "do you compare IDF to Nazis" without choice. Makes a difference.

The only things this tells us is that Israel's position vis a vi the Palestinians is highly unpopular in Europe.

As for the Germans-and the notion that because they were the Nazis, they can't call anyone else Nazi's..actually, if anything it probably works the opposite-given how far the Germans went anti-nationalism and anti-patriotism and every other reaction to the nazi period, I would think them more likely to equate anything in the general vacinity of some of the types of violence carried by their predecessors as being like the Nazi.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

I'm not saying IDF = Nazis. But there are similarities.

You've just pointed out how they're dissimilar.

So you are now equating similarity with identity? So if something is similiar it must be identical?? Things that are similiar are also things which are dissimilar. If there were no dissimilarities, they would be identical.

A glass that is half filled with water is similar to a glass that is 90% filled with water. You, instead of seeing the glass and the presence of water, point to the great presense of air and proclaim, "THEY ARE TOTALY DIFFERENT!!!!"

[Kuciwalker]

Everything you mentioned in your post pointed out how they were different.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Everything you mentioned in your post pointed out how they were different.

Because I don't want anyone to think I am suggesting they are the same, which, if I didn't say obviously, I know I would be attacked on. I had previously posted on how the two were similar (using collective punishment, indiscriminent killing of non-combatant civilians, the brutality of the occupation in daily life).

[axi]

Perhaps we should stop playing with the meaning of words so much. Israelis and Palestininas do not exchange metaphores, in the very end, they exchange bullets and bombs.

What have we learned from all of this?

1. A large majority of the German (the European I might add) population does not like Israeli policy and is vocal about it.

2. The Israelis are pretty much indignant of the outcry, ergo they do not care much about what Europe says.

3. Albeit the rhetoric, no european government is ever going to do jack**** to counter Israel (push for real international intervention, apply sanctions, etc) and that's probably why the Israelis are not interested in their opinion.

4. It falls on the Americans who, until now are supporting Israel to decide if they care or not about the course of Israeli policy, given the outcry there is in Europe.

5. This means that, the people we should be asking about how much this comparison is touching them are neither the Europeans nor the Israelis, but the Americans.

6. Unfortunately the American public, never having had first hand experience of nazism, are the least capable in general of comparing the two cases.

[Ming]

Originally posted by axi
6. Unfortunately the American public, never having had first hand experience of nazism, are the least capable in general of comparing the two cases.

Gee... that never has stopped the Europeans here from stating their opinions of American even though most have little or no first hand experience of it

[axi]

opinions of American what?