Are labor supply and freedom related?

[Velociryx]

Oh, quite so, and carry on! I was just ranting aloud while waiting for his return!

-=Vel=-

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Velociryx
It's okay that the party bosses can split up families and order me to go work where "i will do the most good for the group"...for as long as they say. That's fine.

You know that comic book series is a joke, right?

[chequita guevara]

I wonder how fair it is to have five or six people all hammering kid at once.

[Arrian]

Then step up, Che, and take his side.

-Arrian

[Flubber]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


You know that comic book series is a joke, right?

Perhaps--- we are talking kid's version of communism here. I still remember that he indicated that Mrs Flubber MUST go to work. We would not have the option for her to stay at home with baby Flubber and for us to make do as a single-income family (at the state mandated fair wage of course)

[chequita guevara]

I have nine pages of catch up to do. The problem I have with these kid v everyone debates is that people keep saying BS stuff, like vel did about kid wanting party bosses to tell people where to live and what jobs to do. Kid is sometimes inconsistent, and that makes it a lot easier for everyone to twist what he's saying around. I don't really want to deal with that.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I wonder how fair it is to have five or six people all hammering kid at once.

I think kid enjoys it.

Plus when 5 or 6 of us are at him, he can skip the most troublesome arguments and go on to some other argument where he does have a leg to stand on.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I have nine pages of catch up to do. The problem I have with these kid v everyone debates is that people keep saying BS stuff, like vel did about kid wanting party bosses to tell people where to live and what jobs to do. Kid is sometimes inconsistent, and that makes it a lot easier for everyone to twist what he's saying around. I don't really want to deal with that.

Kid is OFTEN inconsistent. After 3 or 4 or these threads he still hasn't given a straight answer on something as simple as whether in his brand of communism one person could earn a higher hourly wage than another. He initially indicated no but there was a lot of inconsistency when we questioned how people would be encouraged to do the harder dirtier more dangerous jobs without incentives.

Che-- if you want to jump in and defend communism I know that I won't hold you to ANYTHING that kid has said. I appreciate that there are as many flavors of communism as there are of capitalism.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I have nine pages of catch up to do. The problem I have with these kid v everyone debates is that people keep saying BS stuff, like vel did about kid wanting party bosses to tell people where to live and what jobs to do. Kid is sometimes inconsistent, and that makes it a lot easier for everyone to twist what he's saying around. I don't really want to deal with that.

Vel does at times take something Kid says and run with it a bit, but in this instance, I specifically asked Kid about the issue of ordering people where to work and whatnot - he answered, clearly, that they would be ordered. Is there a big leap from that to talking of party bosses telling people what to do?

And I wouldn't say we're all trying to "hammer" him. I've made several posts in this thread with the serious intention of trying to understand what his ideology is, and how it might function, not just so that I may ridicule it. So that we can discuss it, instead of name-calling. That involves asking questions.

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

Yep...but I wasn't talking about the comic books.

In a previous rendition (as Flubber mentioned), Kid was going to force Mrs. Flubber to work.

Kid has said himself in previous threads that he WANTS to be able to force you to work where he says.

In this very thread, the sentiment was reiterated. People will be forced to work where the party bosses say, for as long as they say. This, per kid, "has some good points and bad."

I must admit that Kid's theories are a veritable GOLD MINE of contradictions, but yes, when you catch up on the reading, feel free to dive in!

-=Vel=-

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I wonder how fair it is to have five or six people all hammering kid at once.

No so much fair/unfair as much as it has been done to death.

OTOH speaking of visions of hammering

Rachel Hunter

I'ld hit it

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Flubber
Kid is OFTEN inconsistent. After 3 or 4 or these threads he still hasn't given a straight answer on something as simple as whether in his brand of communism one person could earn a higher hourly wage than another. He initially indicated no but there was a lot of inconsistency when we questioned how people would be encouraged to do the harder dirtier more dangerous jobs without incentives.

Che-- if you want to jump in and defend communism I know that I won't hold you to ANYTHING that kid has said. I appreciate that there are as many flavors of communism as there are of capitalism.

I think part of Kid's problem is he seems to try and be recreating communism, without going back and learning from the "masters." In The State and Revolution, Lenin argued for the necessity of pay disparity during the period of transition from capitalism to communism, but that it should be limited to no more than five times the amount of the lowest pay scale.

This is necessary because some jobs are more important than others, some require more training than others, etc. It is also necessary because people will be emerging from a class society. I would note, however, that even in capitalist soiety, the hardest, dirties, and most dangerous jobs are not the best rewarded. It's true that certain jobs like oil well fire fighter or underwater construction, etc. are both exceedingly dangerous and and financially lucrative.

Consider the armed forces, however. There is very little actual reward for military service. Yet millions of people voluneteer for such work, because they believe in their country. The GI Bill sucks broken glass, and there isn't a lot of call for most skills you learn in the military, despite what most vets will tell you. Also consider the millions who voluneer to be police officers and firefighters. Consider all the social workers and teachers. There's lots of unrewarded or poorly rewarded and necessary work that gets done in capitalist society. There's no reason to assume that all these people would suddenly become greedy and lazy in a socialist society.

The experience of the Soviet Union does teach us a lot, both good and bad. During the first Five Year Plan, people threw themselves into rebuilding the country. Reward for extra hard work was social: getting a medal or being recognized on news real, getting a park named after you, etc. People belived they were building a better tomorrow, and so they were more than willing to sacrifice. Within a decade they turned an agrarian country wrecked by war into an industrial powerhouse. I'm not saying it wasn't a great cost.

Fear is not so great a motivator as to produce the results that the USSR got. Only belief can do that. Fear gets people to do the bare minimum. Hell, one of the legacies of slavery still with us today is of the lazy Black person, because slaves did no more than they were told, and often shirked much of that. Fear only works wonder for as long as the adrenaline is flowing. Then you burnout.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

At the risk of being dragged in, I'll do a quick in and out question.

Che,

So why wasn't it sustainable across multi-generations?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
At the risk of being dragged in, I'll do a quick in and out question.

Che,

So why wasn't it sustainable across multi-generations?

Mutliple reasons.

First and foremost, I'd say that that kind of energy isn't sustainable in the long run. You do a lot of injury to body and mind when you put all of your energy into work. At a certain point, you're just going to fail.

Second, the Soviets didn't deliver on their promise for a better tomorrow. When your idol turns out to have feet of clay, a lot of your zeal is going to wane.

As for reason number two, I think there are two main reasons for the failure to deliver.

2 A. Would be the nature of Stalin's regime itself. I'll come back to this in a moment.

2 B. Was the Nazi invasion, which ended up destroying much of what had been built. Imagine if you spent a couple of years building a model train set in your basement, putting all your free time into it, and then some theives destroy it whil trying to steal it. Very likely, your heart will be broken and you won't have as much motivation to rebuild. Some will, many won't.

Back to 2A. Stalin's Five Year Plans were created with political goals in mind, without regard to what resource they had, and what they could accomplish. Because of this, they would always fall short. Not only would the goods then not be delivered to the Soviet peoples in terms of a better life, but because of the climate of fear in the USSR, people were too afraid to contradict the boss or tell him they weren't meeting their goals. The government of the USSR operated in an air of unreality, and when reality came crashing down on them in the form of reason 2 B., they never really recovered mentally.

That, unfortunately, is the limit of my knowledge. I know there was a burst of energy in the 50s, and then it seemed to stagnate. I would hazard a guess that the same forces of post-war gloom and alienation aflicted the Soviets, but since they lacked political and intellectual freedom, they were unable to come up with a way to escape. We did only by embracing Huxley and drinking our soma.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Thus , you get caught in the cycle described above . And BTW , you do have free time .

I don't accept that as a likely possibility.

I'd like you to tell me exactly where fairness ends and exploitation begins , in the scenario I described .

Please tell me where exactly the exploitativeness manifests itself ( quote the exact place ) .

The exploitation starts with Berzerker when he sees my misfortune and decides to take advantage of it. Now seeing this why do you think he would give me free time to escape my predicament. That's a contradiction. If he's acting in his self-interest and taking advantage of my misfortune then he's not likely to give me free time.