Are labor supply and freedom related?

[Kidlicious]

Reviewing history does it seem to any of you that the lower wages are the more freedom we have?

Before the Black Death of the 14th century feudal lords moved to free their serfs so that they could collect high rent. After the Black Death they moved to change the laws to prevent serfs from becoming free because the rents were too low.

Then came mercantilism with the ceilings on wage, because of the labor shortages. That continued on until the 18th century when labor supply was in abundance. Then the movement was towards free markets.

Does anyone agree or disagree with me? What will happen when the labor supply starts falling again? What would happen if we had another epidemic like the Black Death?

[Last Conformist]

High wages and freedom are both bribes used by the ruling classes which are more in need in cases of labour shortages. They'll thus tend to coincide.

[problem_child]

This seems like an interesting debate, alas I don't feel informed enough to select a posistion at random, dive in, and defend it to the bitter bitter end.

Instead I'd like to ask you to define 'Freedom' in this sense, as alot of talk about Freedom recently leads me to believe that essentialy Freedom is just a different term for 'capitalism'. In which case greater labour supply = greater capitalism, or 'Free-dom' as you call it.

[Odin]

I thought a labor shortage was good for people because the value of their labor went up. That one of the reasons, I think, why China never industrialized until the 20th century (the other being the Chinese's contempt for the merchant class), they had enough peasants to do the dirty work and so no incentive to invent ways to help one person make more to overcome the labor shortages.

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Odin
I thought a labor shortage was good for people because the value of their labor went up.

Exactly.

That one of the reasons, I think, why China never industrialized until the 20th century (the other being the Chinese's contempt for the merchant class), they had enough peasants to do the dirty work and so no incentive to invent ways to help one person make more to overcome the labor shortages.

Probably.

[Ramo]

Before the Black Death of the 14th century feudal lords moved to free their serfs so that they could collect high rent. After the Black Death they moved to change the laws to prevent serfs from becoming free because the rents were too low.

That's correct. There's a high degree of correlation between labor supply and freedom from the state. That's why the places with the highest population densities in medieval Europe: Italy, the Low Countries, Byzantium, were the places where serfdom was the least prominent.

Similarly in the Americas, slavery was enforced due to the severe labor shortages, and was to last the longest in the lowest population density regions.

Basically, there's little need for the state coercion on labor when the market takes care of the coercion for you.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by problem_child
This seems like an interesting debate, alas I don't feel informed enough to select a posistion at random, dive in, and defend it to the bitter bitter end.

Instead I'd like to ask you to define 'Freedom' in this sense, as alot of talk about Freedom recently leads me to believe that essentialy Freedom is just a different term for 'capitalism'. In which case greater labour supply = greater capitalism, or 'Free-dom' as you call it.

Freedom = from others control over you. Not freedom = capitalism. For example, when the populations increased in Europe the feudal lords desired to free their serfs, but only to exploit them in the market place.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
High wages and freedom are both bribes used by the ruling classes which are more in need in cases of labour shortages. They'll thus tend to coincide.

High wages and freedom coincide with labor shortages, true, but what about when the rulers are able to take away our freedom, for example to put a ceiling on wages or institute some modern type of serfdom?

[Zulu Elephant]

I was under the impression that the black death actually drove the beggining of the slow march towards political freedom. Suddenly the feudal barons had to be nicer to their people because there were always other barons who could offer them slightly better conditions and therefore gain an advantage from having more labourers

[Odin]

Originally posted by Zulu Elephant
I was under the impression that the black death actually drove the beggining of the slow march towards political freedom. Suddenly the feudal barons had to be nicer to their people because there were always other barons who could offer them slightly better conditions and therefore gain an advantage from having more labourers

Exactly, see my post above.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Zulu Elephant
I was under the impression that the black death actually drove the beggining of the slow march towards political freedom. Suddenly the feudal barons had to be nicer to their people because there were always other barons who could offer them slightly better conditions and therefore gain an advantage from having more labourers

The feudal barons had the same political interests. The smart thing is not to compete.

BBC

Social change
Life in Britain in the fourteenth century was 'nasty, brutish and short', and it had been that way for the peasantry since long before the Black Death. Britain in the early fourteenth century was horrendously overpopulated. This was very good for the land-owning classes, since it meant that they had a vast reserve of inexpensive manpower upon which they could draw. In fact, there was such a surplus on manpower, that most landlords found it convenient to relax the old feudal labour dues owed to them on the grounds that men could always be found to perform them.

'Life in Britain in the Fourteenth Century was 'nasty, brutish and short.''

This changed after 1348.

We can see in the example of Farnham the immediate consequence of the plague: a slash in the cost of livestock and inflation in the cost of labour. This pattern was repeated up and down the country. The immediate reaction of the elite was to legislate against this. The Ordinance of Labourers was published on 18th June 1349, limiting the freedom of peasants to move around in search of the most lucrative work. This was promulgated through Parliament as the Statute of Labourers in 1351:

[Berzerker]

Reviewing history does it seem to any of you that the lower wages are the more freedom we have?

The Bushmen have very low "wages" and have more freedom than most people, does that help?

[Berzerker]

Oh yeah, if the Plague reduced population resulting in a labor shortage with a subsequent increase in wages and more "freedom", then that would explain the commies penchant for ridding society of those unfortunate souls too stupid to know they are slaves in the marketplace.

[Al B. Sure!]

on an international level, a nation whose economy is experiencing continual and acute labour shortages would be at a stark disadvantage compared to others because it will not operate anywhere near the optimal points on a ppf curve...

there could also be the problem that is prevalent in the third world and somewhat validates Malthus... the population may be huge and growing rapidly but too many people are children and not in the labour supply so they experience labour shortages and as a consequence can not sustain the large consumer population.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Berzerker
The Bushmen have very low "wages" and have more freedom than most people, does that help?

Maybe you don't get it. When labor is in abundance there is no reason for slavery. When there is a shortage of labor rulers need slavery.