Are labor supply and freedom related?

[Velociryx]

And as I have explained, in the above situation, you DO have power.

Without you working on Berz's farm, he says bye bye to ALL his free time.

Free time is valuable to him, because it will free him up to make creature comforts for himself (and for you, if you desire them).

That's your power. That's your spin.

The rest is up to you.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Unfortunately he knows my hand.

[Velociryx]

Yes, and you know his. Without you working his land, he has no free time. That's valuable to him.

Kid, I'm not sure what the big mystery is here. I've shown you your power. I've demonstrated how you can negotiate yourself a good deal. You yourself agree that you owe Berz something in the situation above.

Suck it up, make it happen, and then try again come spring on your own land.


Or would you rather continue to cry "victim!"
-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Don't go into sales or law school.

[Velociryx]

I'll take that to be a concession of defeat.

Can't give an answer of substance, so we resort to one line quips...that's how it goes, right?

Oh, and while I'm here, let us examine another bit of Kidatopia....that part about the boss in your utopia (the one who orders (forces) people to relocate, telling them where to work and for how long.

You said that at least in your system, he would gain no privledge by virtue of BEING the boss.

Let's take a look at that:

His privledges (off the top of my head, and I'm sure I'm missing many) would be:
1) The fact that he himself does not have to relocate
2) The power to rip families apart at will (send daddy to the mill and leave mommy at home)
3) The above power could be abused (and don't think it won't happen) if the Boss lusts after the worker's wife.
4) Kickbacks! Lotta money to be made in accepting bribers from people who don't wanna go.
5) For that matter, it'd be easy to engineer a situation to gain said kickbacks. Simply recommend someone for departure when you KNOW they don't want to leave....then, accept payment to pick someone else. Rinse and repeat as often as you desire.
6) Got a rival you don't like? Send him to work in the coal mines!

But oh no...he has no privledge at being the boss in your utopia.

Nope.

None at all.



Your ideology is built on outdated economic ideas that belong in the dustbin of history.

They have been tried.

They failed, and they left a bloody legacy behind.

Any ideology which begins by saying "once we kill off all the (fill in the blanks)" should raise a big honkin red flag in your mind.

Yet you embrace it.

And you say you want justice.

Uh huh.

-=Vel=-

[aneeshm]

A clarification here - in case you missed it , Kidicious , I said that Berz has utilised only a tiny fraction the the usable land . You have practically 99.5 % of the island left to do with as you please . And 50 % of the island is fertile land , so you have about 49.5 % of the island's fertile land , Berz has only 0.5 % , because that is his limit of cultivation - he cannot cultivate any more .

He chooses to use his time productively to cultivate the land and to try to rear animals on it . You do something else .

Thus , you get caught in the cycle described above . And BTW , you do have free time .



I'd like you to tell me exactly where fairness ends and exploitation begins , in the scenario I described .

Berz worked the land , and reared animals to the best of hsi ability , so that he could have food come winter . You didn't . Seeing that you are starving , he offers you food in place of your labour . Now , he is free to increase his standard of living , while you are not ( you spend your time working the land owned by Berz ( which he came to own because he used it , you had the same chance ) , while he spends his time building new stuff which is both useful for agriculture , and is also for day-to-day living ) .

The "compensation" he gets is a direct result of working the land ( in the form of food , which will sustain him ) . By manas of this compensation , however , he has a stranglehold on your labour , which you give him ( if you want to live ) .

Now that he has plenty of spare time , he spends it , as said before , to build useful stuff . He is the only one who has it . Now , to keep you working on his farm , he offers you some of the stuff ( which eh knows you really want ) in exchange for your labour . Because you yearn , after a long year without , for the basic comforts of life , you accept his offer . This cycle repeats , with him constantly building better things , and you buying them in exchange for labour .

Please tell me where exactly the exploitativeness manifests itself ( quote the exact place ) .

[Velociryx]

*pops meds, grabs popcorn, and takes notes from aneeshm's approach*

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

Let's make the example a little more commie-friendly.

Let's say that Kid isn't facing starvation over the winter because he didn't cultivate his land, but rather that his land was flooded (nearby stream overflowed due to heavy rains) and his crops were destroyed. Natural disaster.

Ok, then. He's now in a tough spot. What does he do? Well, clearly in this example there is no society and thus no social safety net. He must seek help from his neighbor. Beserker, being a decent fellow, offers him food & shelter for the winter in exchange for labor over the same period.

Then, come spring, Kid can go back to his land and try again. That doesn't strike me as exploitation.

However, if Beserker demands that Kid agree to work for him forever and turn over his former lands as well, that's going a tad far, isn't it? But in our hypothetical 2-person island, what is Kid's recourse? There are only three I can think of:

1) Starve (uh, no)
2) Steal
3) Murder

This, however, is why modern capitalist societies provide some form of safety net...

-Arrian

[Berzerker]

It's not immune. And I'm not saying that it would be impossible for you to receive unfair compensation within my system. I am saying that it would be fairer though. As far as our expample goes, assuming that there are plenty of bananas for both of us, I don't see how me eating bananas would cost you anything. And therefore I think that I shouldn't have to pay you for them.

Make up your mind, you said I should be compensated and then you switch back to Kidocracy mode and try to justify stealing my labor.

Sure you would be peacefull regarding the capitalist, but what about the poor starving guy who isn't getting a fair deal, who takes a few extra bananas.

I'd be peaceful to the capitalist because his property belongs to him, not me. That limits what I can do in response to his charging what I consider unfair.

[Velociryx]

Arrian...agreed, but in the above example (I've been following most closely the one by aneeshm), Berz currently only has 0.5% of the land cultivated. It wouldn't matter even if he DID demand all of Kid's land, cos that'd still leave 99% of the land unaccounted for, and 49% of the fertile land. And unless their farms were adjacent, there'd be no real gain by Berz for making such a demand anyways. Thus, something of a safety-net by default. Kid's land is protected from such a claim by virtue of the fact that Berz doesn't need it (plenty more unclaimed) and that he's got his plate full just working what he's currently got.

But as usual, I agree re: the safety net!

-=Vel=-

[aneeshm]

@ Arrian

Berz never asked that Kid work forever . It was just that , having worked once , Berz made some stuff which Kid just *HAD* to have to get his standard of living back a little to normal . He made toilet paper fashioned from some leaves , or something , along with salt for food , and meat which Berz reared , together with a way of cooking , a fishing net for fish , a crude boat , and a rather good shelter , which was weatherproof . All these things were offered to Kid in exchange for his working the land again for the next season . He also found the way of salting fish which would preserve it well into the winter .

When winter came after the first season , Kid naturally claimed his payment . The agreed-upon payment was a big bunch of bananas every two days . Berz made him an offer - he could live on bananas and risk malnutrition from lack of protein , or he could consent to work for the salted fish and the and the animals Berz had reared . Kid , being natually conscious of his health , chose the second option .

The next season , Berz made irrigation canals , diverted the freshwater stream from a nearby place , and constructed a crude form of plumbing for both the shelters , but it was Kid's job to pump the water if he wanted all these things . He also sold salted fish , along with spiced meat ( he has grown a small herb garden in the first year ) , in exchange for Kid's labour .


I repeat , Berz never made Kid work forever . He just made such things that Kid did not think he could live without , thus Kid is now living in a cycle where Berz makes better things all the time , and Kid buys them in exchange for labour .

[Flubber]

arrian and aneeshm

I think we need to try to put this in kids language.

If Bezerker has laboured mightily, putting in 1000 man-hours into agriculture while Kid was sunbathing, this created value. Now that Kid needs food, it seems even on Kid's logic he would need to work fo Bezerker for 25 hours each for 20 weeks to just get to 500 man-hours to "entitle" him to one-third of the produce. If next year Kid worked the same , they could be entitled to half each and in 10 years hence on the same arrangement Bezerker would be theoretically entitled to 16.67% of the produce since he would have worked 1000 of the 6000 hours involved in the production.

Kid any objection to this?? Its all based on work and people are getting compensated directly on the work they put in.

[Velociryx]

The main problem I see with Kid's theory (which has mutated and evolved a good bit from earlier iterations...this is the first time Kid has mentioned Taxes in the Kidaverse, meaning that he intends to exploit everyone, by taking some of the value of their production, for example), is that if it's not "sweat labor" it's not work.

Kid places no value on other contributions to a productive effort.

If I loan Kid the money he needs to go buy a tractor, I am not to be compensated in any way, even though without the money I loaned him, said tractor would be a dream. Nope. Nosir. Not allowed to collect any interest on the money lent.

This, however, is exploitation.

I worked hard for that money. It is a store of value, representing my own hours of labor, and if Kid borrows it from me, then until he pays it back, I lose access TO my stored labor for some specified period of time.

This needs to be compensated (interest tacked onto the amount owed), else HE is exploiting ME, but ooooohhhhh no. Kid will tell you that because I'm not working alongside him, my contribution is meaningless.

Kid wants to be able to borrow my tractor at will (either for free, or for whatever amount HE determines is "fair" compensation), and per his ideology, if this is unacceptable, then the exploited worker has the right, duty, and obligation to kill the owner of said device and make off with it...for the good of all, you see.

Doesn't sound so good for the former owner of said tool.

And he wonders why people aren't flocking to his utopic ideology??

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Another big beef I've got is that Kid's ideology seems to place a greater emphasis on economic equality, over and above personal freedom and liberty.

It's okay that the party bosses can split up families and order me to go work where "i will do the most good for the group"...for as long as they say. That's fine.

Splitting up the family is fine, forcing me into slavery far from home is fine...everything's fine, cos hey...we're all making the same amount of money now, and THAT is all that matters.

Happy day.

-=Vel=-

[Flubber]

Vel

While I agree with your approach, I am trying to show the fallacy of kid's distinctions even if we accept his premises that only work "counts". The bezerker kid island is a perfect example since we have set the scene with utopian equality at the beginning but now through work and only work, Bezerker has an asset of value, whether it be a farm or a tool or whatever. Now the question to kid is the manner in which the small two person society could allow kid to use or harvest that asset. Taking it for free means that kid is TAKING the value of Bezerker's sweating back-breaking work for NOTHING. THat HAS to be EXPLOITATION.