Are labor supply and freedom related?

[Velociryx]

Kid...aren't YOU in the best position to determine if one season's work is a fair price?

I mean...who better to make that determination?

What are you driving at, exactly? That it's not fair unless Berz just gives it to you?

-=Vel=-

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Flubber
[W]hile I can agree that the existence of communism may have helped soften the hard edges of capitalism in the past, I now see it as an ideology of decreasing relevance.

Well, we may not be setting agenda's today, but my point is that we are where we are today because of the existence of the USSR and the communist "threat." Previous to our dubious sucess in the USSR, the capitalists prefered method of dealing with working class demands was the billy club and the machine gun. Once they say that we could do away with them, they decided another option was called for.

Frankly I don't see the threat of communist revolution even being a minor factor in determining social policy.

Not so much today. Where we (I'm using a broad we here) have enough support to constitute a mass movement, they've pretty much watered down their message to social democracy (France, Italy, etc.).

Instead I see capitalist democracies that are for the most part comfortable with funding a pretty decent social safety net.

Also I was wondering if you see the degradation of social programs in places other than the US. Here in Canada there are now talks of a pharmacare program and even some talks about a national daycare program (unlikely to happen but just the fact it is discussed is hardly an indicator that social programs are under attack)--

They've been underfunding healthcare for almost a decade now, haven't they? In Germany, they've decreased the length of the holiday. In France, they're trying to take back the decrease in the work week, in the U.S., welfare "reform," etc.

[Velociryx]

And no....you have to NEGOTIATE with Berz or do without. It IS the fruit of his labor, after all. what do you see wrong with that?

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber
Just to clarify. You think its OK to take the possessions of another if in your judgement they are "equally well off without them"?

If I pay him for something that doesn't cost him anything then how can that be fair?

Oh and what did Bezerker do at your expense. You are on the same island with the same resources. He worked and created stuff and now you say its ok to take it??

Did he buy the island to make a profit from me? Of maybe he didn't but now sees an opportunity to do so. Of course it's at my expense. If neither of us owned the island then there would be no question about me just eating the bananas.

[Kidlicious]

Where is Arrian's post where he claims that the evils of capitalism are the result of primitive systems? Primitive systems are pretty peacefull in general.

[Velociryx]

Kid...he GREW the bananas with his LABOR.

According to your ideology, labor is precious.

If you don't compensate him for his labor, you are exploiting.

This is per your own rules.

It doesn't matter if he labored to create something he didn't need.

That is irrelevant, and not a part of the equation.

Why are you trying so hard to make it part of the equation now?

-=Vel=-

[chequita guevara]

Kid, you need to study Marxism. Your will is strong, but arguments are confused, and your chi is weak.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

They've been underfunding healthcare for almost a decade now, haven't they? In Germany, they've decreased the length of the holiday. In France, they're trying to take back the decrease in the work week, in the U.S., welfare "reform," etc.

I don't have the numbers at my fingertips but healthcare funding has skyrocketed IIRC but it NEVER seems to meet the demands for more and more funding. Its a constant fight since there seems to be no amount of money that quenches the appetite of the health care monster. My recollection is that health care funding has been increasing in most provinces even against inflation but I will check it out

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Where is Arrian's post where he claims that the evils of capitalism are the result of primitive systems? Primitive systems are pretty peacefull in general.

I posted earlier in this thread that *if* a certain mentality exists (you claimed the middle class see everyone as potential enemies because they too are struggling to get by), then it is most likely the result of our evolution as hunter-gatherer types (humans in general tend to distrust/fear outsiders - it's something we have to use education to dampen), and is thus not something you can lay at the feet of capitalism. Capitalism may exacerbate that particular human tendency with regard to financial well-being, but I do not think the tendency itself would disappear under a different economic system. It would merely manifest differently.

So I did not say that the "evils of capitalism" are the result of "primitive systems." I said we have evolved into a creature that by its nature tends towards tribalism and thus the "evil" is not really an "evil of capitalism."

-Arrian

[Az]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Kid, you need to study Marxism. Your will is strong, but arguments are confused, and your chi is weak.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Questions posed by this example:
a) do you, or don't you, in fact, have free time now?
b) am I exploiting you?
c) if so, how and why?

It's a much better deal for me of course, but let's say something happens to Berzerker's land and now you employee him too. Then what kind of deal will you give us? If you act in your own interest for profit and power not such a good one.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Kid, you need to study Marxism. Your will is strong, but arguments are confused, and your chi is weak.

Explain learned one with your fansy book learnin'.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Arrian


I posted earlier in this thread that *if* a certain mentality exists (you claimed the middle class see everyone as potential enemies because they too are struggling to get by), then it is most likely the result of our evolution as hunter-gatherer types (humans in general tend to distrust/fear outsiders - it's something we have to use education to dampen), and is thus not something you can lay at the feet of capitalism. Capitalism may exacerbate that particular human tendency with regard to financial well-being, but I do not think the tendency itself would disappear under a different economic system. It would merely manifest differently.

So I did not say that the "evils of capitalism" are the result of "primitive systems." I said we have evolved into a creature that by its nature tends towards tribalism and thus the "evil" is not really an "evil of capitalism."

-Arrian

But hunter gatherer society members do not see each other as enemies. They compete together, but not against each other. It's the individualism of capitalism that causes conflict within society, and between societies.

[Velociryx]

If something happend to Berz's farm, then yes, I absolutely would employ him too, and both of you would recieve similar deals.

It is not in my self-interest to leave you entirely beholden to me, and why you would think so is completely alien to me.

If you are completely beholden to me, then I am REQUIRED to take care of you. That is a job I do not want.

Much preferable, IMO, would be to make use of your labor to better my own life, help you two get back on your feet, and trade with you as you do, so that we all become wealthier.

See, while you and berz are working my farm, I'll be using my free time to make the farm more efficient. Thus, when you and Berz go back to farming your own land, I'll STILL retain my free time, even in your absence. This will free me up to continue to innovate in the future, and I can trade the fruits of my innovative labor for stuff you guys are growing.

Heck, if I'm good enough at that, I might even get out of farming altogether.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

But getting back to your original response to my question.

So...it's a "much better deal" for you, but do you still consider it exploitation? Why or why not?

-=Vel=-