Are labor supply and freedom related?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Che, I live in the South. Just up the road from you. This was the home of slave labor and sweat shop style mills.

I KNOW about poverty. I grew up poor. What I have, I built myself, and to this day, I live in one of the poorest states in the Union.

Wanna know what I don't see?

I don't see slave shacks. I don't see sweat shops. I don't see any evidence of the steel gauntlet, even in one of the poorest states in the union.

Do you think it gets publicized in the media? Just a few years back, a garment factory in North Carloina caught fire and killed a number of workers who were trapped inside because management had changed the fire exits shut to keep workers from sneaking off on smoke breaks. Look up Delta Pride catfish. Look up the current condition of meatpackers in the U.S. Read up on McWayne Inc. in Birmingham, AL. Sweatshops are alive and well in the U.S.

[Velociryx]

Because, Flubber, we're all atomatons, who will automatically seek to enslave all those beneath us, if we can.

You missed that memo?

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I'm not going to say you're naive, cuz I know you aren't, but you're ignorant about the conditions some people in this contry labor under.

Don't go easy on him. He needs you to shatter his fragile eggshell mind.

[Velociryx]

*sigh*

Yes Che...as you say, no system is without blood on its hands.

Remember when New York City had "sweat shop row" - scores upon scores of sweat shops in a row?

Where are they today?

Gone?

Amazing....

Does this mean that all are gone everywhere?

Hardly.

Does this mean that the power of the worker has increased to the point where they are unlikely in the extreme?

Yes. And as proof, they make up such a miniscule part of the economy these days that they barely even register on the radar, and THAT is my point.

The days are gone.

Finding occassional abusers who get shut down and put out of business...yeah...that's going to happen.

Rather akin to finding occassional workers in soviet russia who actually broke production quotas. Not the norm, but it happened sometimes.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

You just say that so that when I become a drooling idiot, you can start exploiting me....

-=Vel=-

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Kontiki
One thing that baffels me is that Kid (and other communists) seems to believe that your position in a modern capitalist society is cemented in place.

By necessity, most people have to remain workers. Everyone can't be capitalists. So to that extent, it's true. The chief indictment of Marxism against capitalism, however, is not the plight of the poor worker, but the fact that the society is irrational and chaotic and that every 7-10 years it falls down, throwing millions out of work, ruining lives. The reason for this downturn is not because society is unproductive, but illogically, because society is so productive that not all of the product can be sold. That's insanity and its the result simply of the relations between human beings, and not cause by a natural catastrophe or a war.

Think about how irrational that is, society falls down because it is doing to well.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Because, Flubber, we're all atomatons, who will automatically seek to enslave all those beneath us, if we can.

You missed that memo?

-=Vel=-

I don't need a memo. Lawyers automatically enslave those beneath us. In fact we require a year of indentured servitude ( the articling year) before we allow new lawyers to pass the bar.

Actually I think I may be being EXPLOITED. My law firm actually collects more from my clients than I get paid !!

[Arrian]

The boom-bust cycle is indeed a valid criticism of capitalism. I wonder however if:

1) That cycle can be managed/mitigated with the economy still largely capitalistic

2) If communists really could manage to prevent boom/bust without inducing neverending bust. Stability is nice... if the condition you want to remain stable is nice. Stability of condition when the condition sucks is not desireable, clearly.

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

Flubber!

Che - in Marx's day, there was no social safety net, and yes, the cyclical unemployment was harsh.

Not nearly as harsh nowadays, and it hardly ruins lives. There's help out there and available. I know...I've had to make use of it a time or three.

I've been corporate downsized out of almost every job I ever had, but it has not ruined my life.

Nor will it.

Again, in Marx's day, yep...lots to be angry about.

That's not the way the game is played anymore.

The indictment doesn't hold.

-=Vel=-

[Flubber]

Capitalism is much like democracy to me-- In each case there are flaws but I still prefer it to the alternatives.

Oh and I like the fact that there are social safeguards-- and not to protect me from revolution-- its simply I like the idea that there is a minimum standard of support that our community will try to ensure everyone has. I like that . . . its just when you try to make everyone the same that I object

[Flubber]

I as well have been downsized twice in 3 years -- thats life!! -- you dust yourself off and then go find another job-- its disappointing, even heartbreaking but there is opportunity here and I am good at what I do.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Remember when New York City had "sweat shop row" - scores upon scores of sweat shops in a row?

Where are they today?

Gone?

Does this mean that all are gone everywhere?

Hardly.

Then you concede my point that the steel gauntlet isn't history, even in the West. Thank you.

Does this mean that the power of the worker has increased to the point where they are unlikely in the extreme?

Most of our meat, poultry, and fish are still produced in sweatshop conditions. Meat packing is still one of the most dangerous jobs there is, and it is worse that it was thirty years ago. Fast Food Nation is a fascinating book for all kinds of reasons (just learning about how McDonalds and Carls Jr were built is really interesting stuff). There's quite a bit of material in there on how our food is produced. That doesn't even take into account the people who pick our produce. Is it like the days of The Jungle? No. Is it someplace anyone with a choice would want to work? No. And if you try and unionize, they shut the plant down and move it.

Then there are the people who cook for us. Fast food is seriously dangerous (and I'm not talking about eating it), and for what? Minimum wage? Despite conservatives myths (and I know you aren't a conservative), most min wage workers are not teenagers. Even if they were, the fact that a min wage job is supposed to be temporary doesn't come close to compensating for the injuries and loss of life.

These are both huge segments of our economy. I could go on.

The days are gone.

They are not gone for everyone, not by a long shot. Outside the west, they are still the rule.

Finding occassional abusers who get shut down and put out of business...yeah...that's going to happen.

The abusers tend to get slapped on the wrist with minor fines, if they get caught. I made an OSHA compliant once about a plant I once worked in, and OSHA sent the company a letter asking if it was true?!?

[Arrian]

There is social pressure to avoid the old 19th century style boom/busts. The panicks of the 1880s, for instance, seem ludicrous now. A lot has changed since then - and I grant you, Che, that some (many?) of those changes were in part a reaction to communism. We no longer live under laisse-faire capitalism (thank goodness!). Much of the 3rd world does (and worse, due to other factors), and that's an issue to be addressed, no question.

-Arrian

[Flubber]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


The abusers tend to get slapped on the wrist with minor fines, if they get caught. I made an OSHA compliant once about a plant I once worked in, and OSHA sent the company a letter asking if it was true?!?

Having worked at a regulatory agency, they would probably have been under an obligation to seek a response to the complaint as part of any investigation.

If that is all that was done, its wrong. But an inquiry letter seeking their position is not only unsuprising, it is appropriate.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Arrian
2) If communists really could manage to prevent boom/bust without inducing neverending bust. Stability is nice... if the condition you want to remain stable is nice. Stability of condition when the condition sucks is not desireable, clearly.

-Arrian

This is the most important critique. The head of the Communist Party in Chicago once mentioned to me that it wasn't the dictatorship in the USSR that most workers in the US thought was a problem. Most people live under a dictator known as the boss. It was the lack of productivity. I would argue it was the alienating nature of the Soviet system coupled with the lack of any useful motivating facot that lead to such low productivity in the 60s, 70s and 80s. If you aren't going to threaten people with starvation and homelessness to get them to work hard, then they need to have a say and some rewards. The Soviets had neither the stick nor the carrot. We have both in the US.

What history tells us is that communism cannot work if it is not open, pluralistic, and democratic. It still might not work then. Don't know. We haven't tried it.